Wacky centre move training from bots.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 11, 2020 10:17 am

John Fairbairn wrote:
The game record in the GoGoD database shows Iyama playing at G. I suppose that is a typo in the database. (?)
No, it was my error here. Sorry. I got misled by the triangled point also being marked in the Japanese article because they were commenting that Iyama showed his genius by not making the obvious cap there.

OK, thanks.

For the record, two pros chose Direct 3-3, but Hirata Tomoya (one of them) called it a probe, and after a couple of shimmy moves vaguely hinting at a ko, he said he would then switch back to the top side at B. (Kyo Kagen was the other 3-3 player).

Assuming the designation of 3-3 as a probe stands up (and I have seen that several times in other such positions; plus I assume Hirata had AI support for his variation)), I do find it hard to believe that omitting a probe really makes such a HUGE difference, in this sort of position, as Elf claims.

Well, Elf did not claim a huge difference between the bottom left invasion and B, It was G that it did not like. B is certainly playable, by Elf's reckoning.

As for whether the invasion is a probe, here is Elf's main line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Elf's main line $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 5 . . . 8 . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 4 , 9 . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After

the rollouts drop below 10k. This is not an easy sequence for me to understand.

at 40 is also playable, which definitely makes

look like a probe, but this sequence, and the fact that it's a close call for

between the invasion and 40, makes me think that is just a case of both the top side and the bottom left corner being of approximately equal value at that point. Quien sabe?

Edit: BTW, ;w42: at a is also playable.

Here is Elf's main line when Black plays on the top side

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Elf's variation 2, after :bc: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . B , . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 O . O . . . O . . . . . O 8 . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit2: As Elf regards

as an error, here is its mainline reply

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Elf's main line reply to :bc: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 9 . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 1 8 . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . B . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

occupies the top side. After

-

White bolsters his top right group. Then after

White plays the 3d line attachment for sabaki.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon May 11, 2020 1:28 pm

I'm guessing this was the move order prior to Iyama's cap(ish)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Iyama's move was good, should white have not played the pincer, but raised a flag around there himself? That would be centre before side though, so presumably black would approach at 3. Nipping the potential of that big black wall in the bud is surely valuable too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Mon May 11, 2020 2:17 pm

I'm guessing this was the move order prior to Iyama's cap(ish)?

No. These moves were 13-14 very early in the fuseki.

The commentary suggests that Iyama's high cap threatened a devastating kosumi at P9, which compelled Cho U to be patient and join up at R10. That in turn allowed Iyama to play J16, and so the battle lines were fixed.

Strictly, J16 was not a kakoi move but a kamae (construction) move, but it's a waste of time trying to discuss such gradations on L19, I find, so I opt for simplification.

The game ended on move 199, with Iyama killing a big group in the upper right, and so they never got round to playing in the lower left.

Despite the fact that Iyama's ear-reddening move captured the imagination, and despite the fact that he won, I don't think this was regarded as a masterpiece game by him. If you want to look it up (Game 2 of the 2011 Judan), the critical move of the game was said to be White 82, which set in train a board-enveloping capturing race. I suspect a bot would find few moves to praise there. But, on the other hand, I further suspect that Hirata, who is an avid student of AI, found the centre play exemplified by Iyama's high cap struck some sort of chord with the way computers handle centre thickness. Beyond that, we are in realms above my pay grade.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Sorry for not giving the GoGoD SGF title. It's 2011-03-24b. Iyama Yuta (B) vs. Cho U.

Actually Black's play on the right side occurred much earlier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Black occupies the right side $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X 3 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

occupies (extends) on the right side. Elf prefers

— get this!— by 11½% (29.7K rollouts). Who, at that time, woulda thunk such a thing?

I still have difficulty believing it.

returns the favor, losing 10% (21.9K rollouts) to, of all plays, a.

Then

- White b, and then Black c - White d. It's a different world, isn't it?

loses only 4% to par, according to Elf, which puts it just within Elf's margin of error, I think.

is also Elf's top choice.

----

As for

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm82 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X X O . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X O O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X . O O . X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O . X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . 1 X . X X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . a . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf's top choice is a, while

is barely on its radar with only 89 rollouts. However, in retrospect it thinks that

is 1% better than a.

White's blunder, says Elf, came earlier at

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm66 White blunder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X X 9 8 X . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 2 . O 7 . X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 6 3 . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . 4 . X X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 0 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Each move from

to

are Elf's top choice except

, which Elf prefers in retrospect.

Here is Elf's mainline for

. Explaining why it is better is above my paygrade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm67 Elf's top choice for :w66: is :wc: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X X . . X . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 X O O . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 2 X O . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . W 4 O . . X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 6 . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X 8 5 . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm77 Elf's main line for :w66:, continued $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X X . . X 4 O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O 2 . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X O O . . . X 5 3 . . | $$ | . . O X . . O X O . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . O O O . . X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . O . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X O X . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . 1 X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue May 12, 2020 12:45 am

I mentioned above that Shibano has revisited the popular tsukeosae joseki in the light of AI, and has concluded that it is lacking in efficiency. I summarised his thinking by using the word mamori (which he did not) because the effect of the osae block is like mamori and the weakness of mamori is that its effect is only on the corner (prophylactic defence) and not on the opponent.

In his latest revelation, he essentially confirms that, and does use the word 'mamori'. He discusses the position below under the heading "It is wrong to think about just mamori".

Black has just made the check (tsume) of the triangled stone. Readers of my Genjo-Chitoku and Shuei's Games will know by now that, along with probes, in high-class commentaries a tusme is almost the shibboleth of a very strong pro. Weaker pros, and amateurs more so, tend to under-tsume and under-probe. But what is less obvious from those commentaries is how to answer a tsume.

In the present case, the traditional moves have been A, B or C. They are all wanting, according to Shibano.

A is bad aji (a move at 3-3 remains). B allows Black a variety of forcing moves, and the relationship of the triangled stone and B is such that White will have been forced.

C is probably the strongest move, so that if Black tries to force at D, White can respond energetically at E. However, it lacks impact on the triangled stone (though that is mitigated if Black foolishly makes the D-E force).

But those moves have fallen out of favour. F is now more popular he says. Note he doesn't actually say 'better' - just 'more popular'. One reason is that, while it does still leave bad aji at the 3-3 point, if Black plays there (and, yes, he can live, the resulting shape on the outside will be such that White's stones will be in contact with the triangled stone, thus making that a very bad move.

Another reason is that if Black goes for forcing moves on the outside instead of the inside aji, White's resulting shape when he answers is much stronger (which again means weakening the triangled stone. One thing I love about Shibano is how elegantly and lucidly he can explain his points, and in this case he does so with splendid tewari example. He postulates Black invading at 3-3 instead of the tsume. That way Black gets a bigger corner and doesn't have a damaged stone on the outside, compared with tsume then 3-3.

He adds that G is also becoming popular (leading to a tsukenobi shape). He argues that the resulting patterns are even - which is a step up for White from the unsatisfactory purely mamori moves A, B and C.

I think it may be worth adding that, both in this case and previous cases, whenever Shibano talks about a move being popular, such remarks are not necessarily borne out by a database inspection. He is referring to what he sees on the internet. Much of that has to be deemed both experimental and "trending". Caveat lector.

Edit: Typo corrected as per jlt

jlt · Post by **jlt** » Tue May 12, 2020 1:02 am

John Fairbairn wrote: if Black goes for forcing moves on the outside inside of the inside aji

I don't understand the meaning of this sentence. Is there a typo?

Edit: the typo has been corrected.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue May 12, 2020 8:28 am

Aleister Crowley position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Do what thou wilt. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The position after

appears in Waltheri 5 times in 2018 and 2019, 3 times with

. The letters show Elf's top 7 choices, a high number for the Elf comentary to show, as it does not show options that get fewer than 1500 rollouts. We have

a 29.2k rollouts
b 29.1k rollouts
c 7.8k rollouts (This one makes me cringe, BTW.

)
d 5.9k rollouts
e 4.9k rollouts
f 2.8k rollouts
g 2.3k rollouts

All of these are playable, IMO, because each of their winrate estimates lies within 2% of that for a. (I reckon Elf's margin of error to be around 4½%, but 2% is close for any top bot.)

is also playble, with a winrate estimate within 2½%.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:05 am

Clicking through Ke Jie's game today in the Chinese league, I was impressed that he hit the blue spot here, not totally wacky, but not on my radar.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . O X X . X O . . . | $$ | . X X X X O O O . O . O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . . , . O O X X O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X . O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O O X . X O X O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . O X O X . . X O . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . X X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . O X X . X O . . . | $$ | . X X X X O O O . O . O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . . , . O O X X O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X . O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O O X . X O X O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . O X O X . . X O . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . X X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Makes sense when you see it as a somewhat sideways rather than capping attack on black's 2 stones, simultanesously growing the top side, helping take care of f16 aji and reaching out a helping hand to the weakish white group on lower side

Life In 19x19

Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.

Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.