1. 2 dan. The diagonal fuseki makes this look a little odd, and jumping right into the corner at 9 seems a little early to me, though it IS a large knight's response. I'm pretty sure black can safely tenuki from the lower right, though I imagine he'd still like sente to come back. All in all, nothing too off-base here.
2. 16 kyu. (Watch, this will turn out to be a pro game). From my unscientific observation, I don't see DDks open with 3-3 often--usually I see it from people who are experimenting. But, 7 is weird. I don't see black getting securable influence out of it. Also, I would think a 12kyuish player would habitually enclose the 3-4 before approaching (though this isn't saying the approach is wrong).
3. 5 dan. Why, you ask? White 6 is obviously weird but, for some reason, White 8 and 10 seem to reflect an deep experimental strategy. I haven't read it out, obviously, but I'm going with my gut on this. So, 5 dan it is.
4. 4 kyu. Again, a bit of an odd fuseki, but it has some principled basis, I think. White's approach seems reasonable on some level, but the upper left might become urgent afterwards.
5. 3 dan. I couldn't decide between 12 kyu and 3 dan. . Through these moves, black shows an enormous moyo strategy. Black 5 and White 6 are odd, but not unplayable. Black 7 is what tells me "12 kyu," and the non-pincer at 9 might tell me the same. Low confidence about this one.
6. 16 kyu. Black 5 is weird, but whatever. White 6, though... I just can't imagine the reasoning for this, and the moves through 10 seem to fight over 7 points in the opening.
7. 5 kyu. I think I understand the thought behind black 9 -- Black doesn't want to be one-space-low-pincered with the small knight's move approach, so black chooses this one-perhaps thinking white might defend the corner. But, I dunno.
8. 5 dan. Why? because it seems intentionally random, as if there is an express or implied agreement not to play fuseki/joseki moves. At the same time, both players are in playable positions.
And second round thoughts:
1. Same (2 dan). The continuation doesn't really change anything for me.
2. Same. (16kyu) I don't have any additional comments. Nothing is dying yet, but this still looks goofy.
3. Same (5d), but I could revise to pro. I doubt I could tell the difference between an amateur 5dan and a pro anyway. (I'm not saying there aren't differences, of course there is a HUGE difference, but it is nearly imperceptible at my level).
4. Same (4 kyu).
5. Same I guess (3 dan). I'm still conflicted about this one, but definitely not a DDK.
6. Same (16 kyu). I would base this on 6-14 alone.
7. Same (5 kyu). I don't think any stronger. Now that I look at it, I think black 7 is a mistake; not an aweful move, but I think Q14 is better for getting some territory on the left side in this situation (assuming that is what black is trying to do). If there was already a white stone around R 9, I'd think differently.
8. Same (5 dan). Funky game, but I think both of these players are stronger than me. Of course, even an SDK could play out these moves so far, but I still think 5 dan.
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:46 am
by daniel_the_smith
1. 4k-3d 2. 12k-6k 3. 1d-9d really weird, but seems ok for both... 4. 7k-2d 5. 9k-1k 6. 25k-13k I'm certain this is a ddk game, more certain about this one than any of the others. 7. 10k-5k 8. 1d-5d
EDIT: those of you who did not change your guesses: O.o
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:19 pm
by topazg
Will post the next ten moves tomorrow, as I think up to 30 is useful, and will announce the results next weekend
EDIT: Bah humbug, wedding plans took priority, but this won't be forgotten!
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:26 am
by PYves
I had only looked at the first 10 moves, updated rating added in brackets, after reading the whole thread...
#1: 1kyu? (1-dan after 20) hard to say so far it's only standard moves, but white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence.
#2: 6 kyu (2kyu after 20) black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)
#3: 1dan (4dan after 20) - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely
#4: 3 kyu. (3kyu after 20) Could be any rank, but I can imagine pros cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.
#5: 4dan (4dan after 20) - seems pretty balanced,
#6: 15k (20 kyu after 20). playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.
#7: 2dan (1kyu after 20) - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.
#8: 6dan (6 dan after 20)- double 6-4, strange fuseki.
Player game 1 game 2 game 3 game 4 game 5 game 6 game 7 game 8 dfan 3d 10k 12k 4d 2k 15k 5k 3d zinger - - 9d/pro - - - - - Shaddy - - 9d/pro - - - - - Kirby - 5d - - - - - - tj86430 1d 9k 6k 2k 3d 7k 4k 5d judicata 2d 16k 5d 4k 3d 16k 5k 5d daniel_ts 4k-3d 12-6k 1-9d 7k-2d 9k-1k 25k-13k 10k-5k 1k-5d Harleqin 3d 6k 5d 1d 3k 12k 5k 2d Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d Araban 2d-5d 14k-9k 6d-9d 8d-4k 8k-4k 14k-9k 8k-4k 3k-1d hyperpape - 12k-4k - - 10k-19k - - 5d-6d Gresil 10k+ 15k 1d+ 10k 1d+ 20k 4k-1k 1d-6d wossname - - 9d/pro - - - - - Koosh 1-2d 10-12k 9d/pro 4-5d 9d/pro 15-20k 10-12k 6-7d Fredrik 3d 7k 9d/pro 5d 9d/pro 20k 9k 6-7d PYves 1d 2k 4d 3k 4d 20k 1k 6d
Please can people try to be specific for the last round Where the players (black vs white in each) are not the same rank, I will award points to the closest (so 1k vs 1d I would award 7 points for 4d and 7 points for 4k, as they are both 3 stones off _one_ of the players)
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:06 pm
by daniel_the_smith
1. 1d-4d 2. 7k-4k 3. We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it 4. 7k-2k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4? 5. 5k-2d M3 was interesting and seems to work. 6. 25k-15k Frighteningly awful 7. 5k-2k 8. 2d-5d
EDIT: Oh ok I'll be specific:
1. 3d 2. 5k 3. 9d We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it 4. 3k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4? 5. 2d M3 was interesting and seems to work. 6. 18k Frighteningly awful 7. 2k 8. 3d
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:26 pm
by Chew Terr
First: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 6k 12k 20k 15k 2d Second: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d Final: Chew Terr 3d 5k (Deranked for move 28, which seems bad aji-keshi) 9d/pro 6k 8k 20k 13k 2d
This is hard.
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:33 pm
by PYves
not changing my answers.
#1: 1dan. white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence. lacks efficiency in his stones.
#2: 2kyu. black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)
#3: pro game - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely
#4: 3 kyu. Could be any rank, but I can imagine most strong players cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.
#5: 4dan - seems pretty balanced,
#6: 20kyu. playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.
#7: 1kyu - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.
#8: 6dan - double 6-4, strange fuseki.
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:51 am
by Harleqin
I have graded almost all games down now. Except for game 3, I do not think that any of these players are stronger than me.
I'm posting the results on Sunday night, and I'll take whatever guesses I have then from everyone - so if you want to get in there, that's the deadline
For ranges given, I will take the average (so 1d+ means 5d, and 12k-10k = 11k). If the average is a half grade, I'll round down to the weaker rank. Any boards that haven't got a guess against them will be scored as 0/10.
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:13 pm
by judicata
For reference, my guesses from the first round:
1. 2 dan. The diagonal fuseki makes this look a little odd, and jumping right into the corner at 9 seems a little early to me, though it IS a large knight's response. I'm pretty sure black can safely tenuki from the lower right, though I imagine he'd still like sente to come back. All in all, nothing too off-base here.
2. 16 kyu. (Watch, this will turn out to be a pro game). From my unscientific observation, I don't see DDks open with 3-3 often--usually I see it from people who are experimenting. But, 7 is weird. I don't see black getting securable influence out of it. Also, I would think a 12kyuish player would habitually enclose the 3-4 before approaching (though this isn't saying the approach is wrong).
3. 5 dan. Why, you ask? White 6 is obviously weird but, for some reason, White 8 and 10 seem to reflect an deep experimental strategy. I haven't read it out, obviously, but I'm going with my gut on this. So, 5 dan it is.
4. 4 kyu. Again, a bit of an odd fuseki, but it has some principled basis, I think. White's approach seems reasonable on some level, but the upper left might become urgent afterwards.
5. 3 dan. I couldn't decide between 12 kyu and 3 dan. . Through these moves, black shows an enormous moyo strategy. Black 5 and White 6 are odd, but not unplayable. Black 7 is what tells me "12 kyu," and the non-pincer at 9 might tell me the same. Low confidence about this one.
6. 16 kyu. Black 5 is weird, but whatever. White 6, though... I just can't imagine the reasoning for this, and the moves through 10 seem to fight over 7 points in the opening.
7. 5 kyu. I think I understand the thought behind black 9 -- Black doesn't want to be one-space-low-pincered with the small knight's move approach, so black chooses this one-perhaps thinking white might defend the corner. But, I dunno.
8. 5 dan. Why? because it seems intentionally random, as if there is an express or implied agreement not to play fuseki/joseki moves. At the same time, both players are in playable positions.
Second round:
1. Same (2 dan). The continuation doesn't really change anything for me.
2. Same. (16kyu) I don't have any additional comments. Nothing is dying yet, but this still looks goofy.
3. Same (5d), but I could revise to pro. I doubt I could tell the difference between an amateur 5dan and a pro anyway. (I'm not saying there aren't differences, of course there is a HUGE difference, but it is nearly imperceptible at my level).
4. Same (4 kyu).
5. Same I guess (3 dan). I'm still conflicted about this one, but definitely not a DDK.
6. Same (16 kyu). I would base this on 6-14 alone.
7. Same (5 kyu). I don't think any stronger. Now that I look at it, I think black 7 is a mistake; not an aweful move, but I think Q14 is better for getting some territory on the left side in this situation (assuming that is what black is trying to do). If there was already a white stone around R 9, I'd think differently.
8. Same (5 dan). Funky game, but I think both of these players are stronger than me. Of course, even an SDK could play out these moves so far, but I still think 5 dan.
And final:
No additional comments; not changing my answers
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:05 pm
by topazg
Aaaand, the final results!!
I've removed everyone who guessed under 4 of the games, and averaged any remaining ranges:
Player (rank) game 1 game 2 game 3 game 4 game 5 game 6 game 7 game 8 score Fredrik 5d 3d 7k 9d/pro 5d 9d/pro 20k 9k 6d 68 Koosh 1d 1d 11k 9d/pro 4d 9d/pro 18k 11k 6d 60 daniel_ts 1d 3d 5k 9d/pro 3k 2d 18k 2k 3d 60 PYves 4d 1d 2k 9d/pro 3k 4d 20k 1k 6d 55 Chew Terr 4k 3d 5k 9d/pro 6k 8k 20k 13k 2d 53 Harleqin 2d 1d 5k 9d/pro 2k 1d 12k 5k 2k 52 judicata 7k 2d 16k 5d 4k 3d 16k 5k 5d 48 Araban 4d 3d 12k 8d 6k 6k 12k 6k 2k 46 dfan 4k 3d 10k 12k 4d 2k 15k 5k 3d 47 tj86430 7k 1d 9k 6k 2k 3d 7k 4k 5d 43 Gresil 6k 10k+ 15k 5d 10k 5d 20k 3k 3d 42 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actual 5d 7k/8k pro 1d pro 21k/19k 6k 3d/2d
Game 1: cugel20k 5d vs yz221 5d Game 2: josehugo 7k vs deym 8k Game 3: Chang Hao 9p vs Wang Lei 6p Game 4: charley 1d vs lookfar 1d Game 5: Hu Yaoyu 8p vs Li Zhe 6p Game 6: Numero8 21k vs izum1 19k Game 7: sumomo 6k vs sangsu 6k Game 8: horstmaria 3d vs Cris007 2d
Really interesting to see the views of game 5, and generally interesting to see how accurate some people were. So, any surprises for those reading? Any comments? Would people like game links?
Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:13 am
by PYves
Confirms that I have a hard time distinguishing between the fuseki of 1kyu to 6 kyu.
I find a lot of the difference between strong kyu players is strength in reading, which usually trumps fuseki judgement for say a 3-4 kyu. I've been reviewing games of several players around 2kyu and there are a lot of mistakes in the fuseki, maybe It biased me towards that.
the other answers are pretty much what I expected.
