Re: shape move
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:00 pm
For clarification, patzer = weak kyu.
Life In 19x19
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shape move
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Re: shape move
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:04 pm
2k: I went with the driving tesuji before reading other points of view, but to be honest that wasn't really a deep whole board decision. I just scanned the board, saw a tesuji, confirmed that it appeared to do useful things (help black move out, weaken white's 4 stones to the right) and figured it was likely enough to be the answer.
Re: shape move
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:26 pm
We now have 9 different move suggestions, from 7 people, so that's enough for me to be getting on with!
So door is now open for you to comment on each others comments and speculate to your heart's content, although i am going to try hard to ignore any further discussion, so as to concentrate on your first thoughts, which is the focus of my experiment.
attached is an updated .sgf; i put the variations in the order kyu before dan, even if the actual sequence of comment events was the other way round.please take a look and see if it correctly represents, anonymously, what you said and let me know of any corrections i should make (by way of a note here, not an update to the file, to make it easier for me to correct the sgf myself). the only thing i won't do is expand my precis of your comments, as i want to keep it as short and simple as possible, so, eg, things such as "i also looked at this, that and the other" won't be included in my analysis + synthesis with what the author says, which will take me some time to produce.
assuming passers-by have nothing better to do while i slave over a hot mouse, here is another ginormous hint:
empty triangles are heavy
i've decided to continue to conceal the identity of the author, so as to leave open the possibility of a followup experiment, but i can tell you that he is a famous player - so that should narrow it down a bit for the sleuths, and i am already suspicious that one of you may have secretly unmasked him....
So door is now open for you to comment on each others comments and speculate to your heart's content, although i am going to try hard to ignore any further discussion, so as to concentrate on your first thoughts, which is the focus of my experiment.
attached is an updated .sgf; i put the variations in the order kyu before dan, even if the actual sequence of comment events was the other way round.please take a look and see if it correctly represents, anonymously, what you said and let me know of any corrections i should make (by way of a note here, not an update to the file, to make it easier for me to correct the sgf myself). the only thing i won't do is expand my precis of your comments, as i want to keep it as short and simple as possible, so, eg, things such as "i also looked at this, that and the other" won't be included in my analysis + synthesis with what the author says, which will take me some time to produce.
assuming passers-by have nothing better to do while i slave over a hot mouse, here is another ginormous hint:
empty triangles are heavy
i've decided to continue to conceal the identity of the author, so as to leave open the possibility of a followup experiment, but i can tell you that he is a famous player - so that should narrow it down a bit for the sleuths, and i am already suspicious that one of you may have secretly unmasked him....
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:54 am
On reflection, I'm less keen on my g14 answer because I think:
- white should probably tenuki g14 (maybe p10?), extending is just helping black with his driving plan
- it's not clear what white move in that area I am scared of: if f14 then g14 drive is still nice (particularly if black's tenuki was to weaken top right / right group), h15 gets j15.
- so although it's locally hot, hence my instinct, looking at the whole board something else related to the weak white groups might be more important.
- not easy to choose what, there's leaning ideas like q8, or maybe something vague around n13 as that's a nice shape for white from the 3 stones once we assume white gets n16 (though some reluctance to make that exchange as it gives black the choice to l18 for emergency connection to top left which is 'only' 98% alive).
- white should probably tenuki g14 (maybe p10?), extending is just helping black with his driving plan
- it's not clear what white move in that area I am scared of: if f14 then g14 drive is still nice (particularly if black's tenuki was to weaken top right / right group), h15 gets j15.
- so although it's locally hot, hence my instinct, looking at the whole board something else related to the weak white groups might be more important.
- not easy to choose what, there's leaning ideas like q8, or maybe something vague around n13 as that's a nice shape for white from the 3 stones once we assume white gets n16 (though some reluctance to make that exchange as it gives black the choice to l18 for emergency connection to top left which is 'only' 98% alive).
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:38 am
good job i have 2 screens so i can have 2 L19's to read what i'm writing about; your reflections are a good illustration of why reading is necessary in Go, and hence why blitz games are probably kinda pointless.
i am going to be asking my Laizy what she thinks of all the answers, to help me get a perspective on them, but my Laizy is only a little girl who gets puffed out quickly, whereas i think you have a supercharged steam train LZ; so it might be interesting for the two Laizies to compare notes.
in the meantime, here is my little Laizy's answer as to what she thinks is black's best move (and i think it's a bloody cheek of Naxosoft to claim that the Barnsley Nightingale is "various artists"!)
i am going to be asking my Laizy what she thinks of all the answers, to help me get a perspective on them, but my Laizy is only a little girl who gets puffed out quickly, whereas i think you have a supercharged steam train LZ; so it might be interesting for the two Laizies to compare notes.
in the meantime, here is my little Laizy's answer as to what she thinks is black's best move (and i think it's a bloody cheek of Naxosoft to claim that the Barnsley Nightingale is "various artists"!)
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:57 am
It's black's turn. Didn't you forget to pass once?
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:41 am
me, forget?!.. i don't remember that i've ever forgotten anything...jlt wrote:It's black's turn. Didn't you forget to pass once?
Never mind, i will fix it later, just enjoy the wonderful Kate Rusby... no wait a sec, the stones look right, i must have made white pass at the end, and Lizzie left the last move marker on black - wait! - not Lizzie, cgoban! - oh boy, this Go thing is as fussy as Debian, no wonder i can't do it.... let me check again...
oh no!! i really really mucked it up, i put an extra black stone on the board at F12 where there shouldnt be one!!!
it wasn't a 2-stone game after all
oh gosh, that nullifies the whole thing! ...or does it? it does mean i led UD astray into thinking about f14 etc (sorry!), but it doesn't nullify the author's answer, so,,,
...so please can we see if we can rescue the situation, by starting again, this time with the finally final correct board position, which is this, which doesnt have the extra black stone. if i told you how many times i have uploaded a "correct" picture, looked at it again, and thought, no wait a minute, there should be a white stone at F16... deleted it, re-edited, reuploaded, redeleted, and on and on and on... no there shouldn't... yes there should, no there shouldnt, and finally, no there shouldnt! and while i was doing all that, going round and round in typo circles, wondering whether there was or wasnt a typo in the book, and finally deciding that there wasnt, you wouldnt believe me that i have been living in a hole in the road and our Dad made me and Kate eat hot gravel and work in mill for 73 hours a day, you wouldnt believe me!
- finallyfinal18.png (275.85 KiB) Viewed 12571 times
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:05 am
Here is what LZ157 thinks (I have no GPU so my computer is too slow to use 40-block networks).
- lz.JPG (108.41 KiB) Viewed 12563 times
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:10 am
Ah! The light dawns. The diagram is OK. It's just White to play, not Black.jlt wrote:It's black's turn. Didn't you forget to pass once?
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:15 am
Null and void, spindle and mutilate with extreme prejudice.
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:32 pm
Caution Error Warning Danger! Blinky Bill is on the loose again, throwing banana skins and red herrings around. Pay no attention to him, children, and do not eat any of the sweets he gives you.Bill Spight wrote:The light dawns.
Re: shape move
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 pm
please can you attach the .sgf you made? i don't trust myself to make a sound one any more!. you know, it might have been a real game, although i can't guess whether you got the lastmove right (i know i didn't!); it seems an odd thing for white to play yose so early on - maybe white is John??jlt wrote:Here is what LZ157 thinks
Thank you to all those that offerred moves on my stuff-up; in my analysis-synthesis of the good version i will try to include suggestions from the Lazies that are close to what you said, so your efforts won't have been wasted.
ttfn
Re: shape move
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:39 am
I am 99.99% sure I got the move order wrong.jaca wrote:please can you attach the .sgf you made?
Re: shape move
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:00 pm
Apparently jaca is hors de combat at the moment. So let me show an interesting plan of play by Deep Leela (Leela 11).
DL started with
a move that appealed to me, although I am not at all sure that I would have played it in an actual game. 
- 
makes Black heavier before living, although at some cost to the strength of the White group on the bottom side.
is a standard attack. 
is an enterprising response, which I suppose DL predicted. This exchange makes 
more urgent, for good choshi. Then 
protects the weak group on the top side. The whole sequence makes a nice counterclockwise flow of the stones. 
goes back to attack the group on the right side, and then 
attacks both White groups on a large scale.
bolsters the heavy White group on the right side. Then 
is a very nice play combining attack and defense. After 
, 
tops the tree.
- 
bolsters his group in sente. And then 
reaches out for more room. 
is a key point, giving White difficulties.
The original position is given as a shape problem, I suppose by playing against the White group on the top side. But White has four, count'em, four weak groups. How to coordinate the attack on all of them is not obvious. is a move you might want to make, as it combines moyo building with attack, but if you start with it, it feels kind of soft. DL's plan makes it a sharp play.
DL started with
a move that appealed to me, although I am not at all sure that I would have played it in an actual game. - makes Black heavier before living, although at some cost to the strength of the White group on the bottom side. is a standard attack. is an enterprising response, which I suppose DL predicted. This exchange makes more urgent, for good choshi. Then protects the weak group on the top side. The whole sequence makes a nice counterclockwise flow of the stones. goes back to attack the group on the right side, and then attacks both White groups on a large scale. bolsters the heavy White group on the right side. Then is a very nice play combining attack and defense. After , tops the tree. - bolsters his group in sente. And then reaches out for more room. is a key point, giving White difficulties. The original position is given as a shape problem, I suppose by playing against the White group on the top side. But White has four, count'em, four weak groups. How to coordinate the attack on all of them is not obvious.
is a move you might want to make, as it combines moyo building with attack, but if you start with it, it feels kind of soft. DL's plan makes it a sharp play.