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Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:05 pm
by WriterJon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
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$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm resisting my reactive instinct to try and save the circled black stone as I don't see any way of doing it that doesn't strengthen the circled white stones. Plus I think that stone can still be made to be a thorn in white's side, and I don't want to give them a chance to pull it out before I can make better use of it. So, where to tenuki...

Looking around the board I think getting a second stone into the top right is probably the best play. I do want to patch my position up around (a) & (b), and to play the big moves at (c-f). But a 2-1 advantage in a corner fight is too good for me to pass up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . f . . e . b . . . . O X . X O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My first instinct is to invade, but that kind of deflates the approach stone below by letting white build a big old wall. I guess my options are pretty much (a), (2), or (1).

(a) violates the rule about attaching to weak stones and my limited reading abilities make it clear they can strengthen themself against the attachment and then make trouble on the top.

So, high or low? I don't really know which is better. My strategic gut says high keeps me connected and works with my general influence-based game. So I'm going with that.

I'm hoping for something like the sequence below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:59 am
by kferg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . W . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
aiming for something like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but of course, he may not cooperate

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:02 pm
by WriterJon
Sorry, I've been afk for a bit dealing with some irl stuff. Am back now I hope.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O B . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think here we have to just hane.

I expect that he will extend and I will have to decide whether to keima into the corner, peep, connect, or make some kind of base/attack on the left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . x X x x . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:56 pm
by kferg
No problem at all, real life happens sometimes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 am
by WriterJon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I have recently seen the joseki below. But I don't love that white ends in sente and can get the next big point. So, I might be tempted to play 3 around one of the (x)'s?

I don't really know to assess which is bigger at this point in the game. I'll do more thinking when I come back for my next move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , x . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . x . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:20 am
by kferg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
gotta take care of this cut

Next he probably takes the corner, and I'll try to get something out of attacking the D14 stone

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:35 pm
by WriterJon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I chickened out and went with the joseki. It works nicely on top and gives me a base.

I don't feel great about it. It can't possibly be good to let him bump my unsupported stone like that and not respond? Maybe I should have gone with the low approach on the left instead? But doing something to protect that stone leaves me with two half-formed and easily attacked groups.

@spectators: I would love to know your thoughts on my thoughts here?

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:22 pm
by Harleqin
Imagine a white stone at D17 instead. Feel the bigness of the corner, the strength of the black and of the white stones when they have a base versus when they don't.

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:34 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Speaking of bases...white cannot let black have C14.

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:10 am
by kferg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm not sure what B will do next. I wouldn't mind if he tried to run with the D14 stone but he could choose to just leave it for now.

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
kferg wrote: I wouldn't mind if he tried to run with the D14 stone...
He may get his wish.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:14 am
by WriterJon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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I think I have to decide how to use the circled stone before moving on. Do I want to commit to saving it now?

Cons, there are big points to grab at the top and bottom left. When they counter attacks that stone white'll be able to solidify territory on the left.

Pros, if I can solidify that stone by attacking his circled stone then his bamboo joint starts looking kind of isolated. Attacking the bamboo joint from the right could create some big territory along the top.

I think the pros have it.

Specific move: pincer doesn't help with the dual purpose of pressuring the bamboo joint. Descending first (1-3) seems heavy and slow and I don't like white playing 2 anywhere on the side of the marked white stone.

So shoulder hit (a) or attachment (3), I guess. The shoulder hit seems a little lighter and a lot less cramped. So, hit it!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B WriterJon v. kferg
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Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:23 pm
by kferg
Hey WriterJon, sorry to disappear like that. I was dealing with a sort of family emergency. If you're still interested in continuing the game, I should be able to keep up a normal schedule again.
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[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
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Hoping to build potential on the bottom left while attacking. I do need to be careful cause my D16 group is not that strong.

I also considered E14, but after thinking a bit I decided it doesn't really do much.

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:41 pm
by WriterJon
I'm happy to keep going. Sorry to hear about the emergency, hope all's well now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
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In the interest of keeping my group light, his group split, and movement towards the middle, this seemed like the best move.

Re: #266 kferg v. WriterJon

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:04 am
by kferg
Thanks. Let's enjoy the rest of the game!
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[go]$$c WriterJon v. kferg
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Trying to keep him separated and move out my cutting stones. Not sure if this or G15 is better. I also looked at C14 -- if I play there, seems like it is fairly hard for him to stop me from connecting up underneath