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Curious position

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=19314

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Re: Curious position

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:54 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Can you please show me Dany in order for me to know where I am wrong? If you agree you take black stones and I try to defend with white. It's your turn.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 2 O X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O O X X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O . . O O X . X . |
$$ | X X O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X 3 O X O X . X 1 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:58 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Can you please show me Dany in order for me to know where I am wrong? If you agree you take black stones and I try to defend with white. It's your turn.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 2 O X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O O X X O X X |
$$ | 4 . X O . , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O . . O O X . X . |
$$ | X X O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X 3 O X O X . X 1 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:13 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Can you please show me Dany in order for me to know where I am wrong? If you agree you take black stones and I try to defend with white. It's your turn.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 2 O X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O O X X O X X |
$$ | 4 . X O . , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O . . O O X . X . |
$$ | X X O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O 5 |
$$ | . X X 3 O X O X . X 1 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:22 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Can you please show me Dany in order for me to know where I am wrong? If you agree you take black stones and I try to defend with white. It's your turn.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 2 O X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O O X X O X X |
$$ | 4 . X O . , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O . . O O X . X . |
$$ | X X O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O 5 |
$$ | . X X 3 O X O X . X 1 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Eureka! That's the move I missed! Very good timing indeed, thank you very much for your help Dany. I will continue to look for a better position but I do not know if I will find the success.

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:28 am
by Gérard TAILLE
First of all, thank you again Dany for having help me to understand the subtilities of the sending 3 - return 1 scheme.
Hoping I have understood here is a new attempt to reach the theme I proposed in this topic (I am still optimistic because I knew Go is a very surprising game)

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:07 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all, thank you again Dany for having help me to understand the subtilities of the sending 3 - return 1 scheme.
Hoping I have understood here is a new attempt to reach the theme I proposed in this topic (I am still optimistic because I knew Go is a very surprising game)

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I do not see how Black can win

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:26 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:First of all, thank you again Dany for having help me to understand the subtilities of the sending 3 - return 1 scheme.
Hoping I have understood here is a new attempt to reach the theme I proposed in this topic (I am still optimistic because I knew Go is a very surprising game)

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I do not see how Black can win
OK Dany, this time I take black stones and you the white ones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 1 O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:30 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote: OK Dany, this time I take black stones and you the white ones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 1 O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | 2 . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:58 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: OK Dany, this time I take black stones and you the white ones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 1 O O O X O O X |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | 2 . X O . , O X O . X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . O O X O . X O . |
$$ | X X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Oops you are again and again right Dany, I modified my position at the last moment (in order to try and avoid dual solution) but it was not a good idea.
Here is my previous version.

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Does this position work Dany? I continue to be optimistic but I am not as strong as you ;-) ;-) ;-)

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:22 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Oops you are again and again right Dany, I modified my position at the last moment (in order to try and avoid dual solution) but it was not a good idea.
Here is my previous version.

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Does this position work Dany? I continue to be optimistic but I am not as strong as you ;-) ;-) ;-)
I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem to work

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:42 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Oops you are again and again right Dany, I modified my position at the last moment (in order to try and avoid dual solution) but it was not a good idea.
Here is my previous version.

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Does this position work Dany? I continue to be optimistic but I am not as strong as you ;-) ;-) ;-)
I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem to work
I am waiting for your sentence. :scratch:
I assume you study first yourself, and you will later checked with katago?

Re: Curious position

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:08 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Oops you are again and again right Dany, I modified my position at the last moment (in order to try and avoid dual solution) but it was not a good idea.
Here is my previous version.

Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Does this position work Dany? I continue to be optimistic but I am not as strong as you ;-) ;-) ;-)
I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem to work
I am waiting for your sentence. :scratch:
I assume you study first yourself, and you will later checked with katago?
I assumed that this would not work and katago seemed to confirm this

P.S. imho this kind of problem is difficult to analyze without a katago

Re: Curious position

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:24 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Dany, because you seem to think that black cannot win let's try a cooperation between us in order to discover the right sequence.
Do you agree that I try to play with black while you take white stones? OC, it will be very interesting if you can use katago to help us.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 1 O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:24 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I guess such problem could be quite difficult for a go program for several reasons: firstly it takes advantage of the rule used (here an area counting), secondly the sending 3 - return 1 configuration is a loop not easy to handled, and thirdly a (strange) seki is never easy to find without exploring a long sequence.
In addition go programs are often optimized for "natural" positions and not for "special" positions like the one above.
Does somebody know if katago is able to resolve this problem?
BTW what is your feeling concerning the strength of a player able to solve such position within some minutes?

Re: Curious position

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:09 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Area counting, komi 5.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Dany, because you seem to think that black cannot win let's try a cooperation between us in order to discover the right sequence.
Do you agree that I try to play with black while you take white stones? OC, it will be very interesting if you can use katago to help us.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 1 O O O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O O O X . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O O O |
$$ | O X X O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Now I think everything is fine with this problem. Black wins by 0.5 point.
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