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Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:18 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$Bc Move #31, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move #31, B+1
This wasn't my first instinct. But after viewing the results of this position, I kind of like it.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcAnd I get sente, perhaps to play around 'a'. Him playing around 'b' after this seems pretty big too, so I must keep that in mind.
I rejected my first instinct, not because I thought it was bad in this situation; I just didn't like it as much:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11This might be fine, but IMO the other way is better. Don't trust me on that though
.
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:24 pm
by Laman
$$Bcm1 Move #32, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #32, B+1
good, no joseki dictionary can help me any longer, so now it is just my vs Dusk Eagle's mind
the situation got pretty complicated. my first instinct was to save my stone from atari but then black connection C16 leave me without a move (a and b are miai and the resulting fight looks like a way to hell):
$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1so i thought about playing C16 myself, but black again has a good and simple counter (a, b miai):
$$Bcm1 Diagram 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 2in the end i chose atari from the other side, E16. this result looks acceptable to me (i will have to decide if a is possible next, otherwise b):
$$Bcm1 Diagram 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 3
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:06 pm
by Bill Spight
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 connects at
Somewhat better for Black -- Suzuki-Kitani
Small Joseki Dictionary Edit: Unhidden.
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:49 pm
by emeraldemon
$$Bc Move #30, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move #30, B+1Looking through GoGod for the above position, I found 35 games. black plays at ''a'' in 22, at ''b'' (Dusk Eagle's move) in 11, and at ''c'' in 2.
$$Bc Move #30, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move #30, B+1In the 11 games with this, white played at ''a'' in 8, at ''b'' (Laman's move) in 2, and ''c'' in 1.
$$Bc 1904
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 1904In 1904 this game was played: Tamura, Yasuhisa 6d vs Tabuchi Yonezo 5d. White won.
Then in 1992, almost 90 years later, Yi Changho played against Yang Chae-ho this way:
$$Bc 6 above 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc 6 above 4I'm not good enough to say if these are good or bad, but they're interesting
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:51 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$Bcm1 Move #33, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #33, B+1
There's a change he expected me to capture. But I believe going here is a better move. That's just one smothered stone on the outside, whereas by going here I can likely claim the corner.
Perhaps he is playing like this to gain sente? If so, I expect the game to go like this, after which he seems free to tenuki, though I might be able to attack his group at some point in the future.
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:55 am
by Laman
$$Bcm1 Move #34, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #34, B+1
i didn't include b C16 in previous post, because i thought Diagram 3 would be slightly better for black and i didn't want to post diagrams for all possible eventualities
i expect black to capture my stone, then i can continue with sansan a or capturing black stone b:
$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1both are very big and i can't say for sure which is better - sansan is always worth much and good for controlling corner but difference between b G17 and w G17 is also not small. i prefer sansan right now, because black probably won't play G17 right away
it is an interesting game. as now, we have strong positions in all corners but no extensions along the sides
and i am glad to see observers commenting, i always enjoy publicity
note before submitting: black might also just take sansan himself and ignore my stone for now. then i would have to play b
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:02 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$Bcm1 Move #35, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #35, B+1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:38 pm
by Bill Spight
$$Bcm1 Capture?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Capture?A note on Laman's expectation that Black will capture the White stone next. With a reasonable opponent that is unlikely. Black is securely connected, so that capturing the orphan gains almost nothing. (If you remove the marked stones as a tewari pair, why would Black play
? Look for Black to take the corner at "a" (as he did) or start a fight with "b".
Edit: Unhidden.
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:13 pm
by Laman
$$Bcm1 Move #36, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #36, B+1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:10 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
I think now is the right time to play here. I can hopefully build up an area on the bottom or invade the corner in the moves following this. It all depends on how he plays. Below are a few ways I think the game could go.
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:59 pm
by Jedo
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:32 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Jedo:
I had considered the high approach at some point in the past, but my biggest reason for not playing it now was not thinking about it here
.
It does seem quite interesting, like something I should have at the very least considered. I might be concerned about him undercutting the bottom area by playing like this though:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:00 am
by Laman
$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
black played the biggest move on the board. i thought about the answer for a while and considered a, b, c:
$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1now you can really appreciate black thickness staring at my corner from both sides. i would like to play a, but it is not very effective - black can take sansan or jump out. if he jumps, my chances to attack him are greatly reduced by his thickness, as i would have to take care of my "a" stone at some point. if he plays sansan, he can live inside in sente and thickness i can get wouldn't be of much use
if i played simply b, taking another big point and letting black play again in the lower left, i am dissatisfied with position after black c, white sansan, black d - black would develop both sides while being backed up by thickness in both adjacent corners
c is not perfect either, but i hope it is good enough. if black answers, i will continue with b and feel ok. i don't see a good answer for black anyway - keima leaves too wide gap, ogeima is a bit cuttable (and generally never good
), two point jump is too low. if black doesn't answer locally, i assume black R11 (below b), then it becomes more interesting. i expect sequence like this:
$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1and according to the minimax algorithm in my head, i think it is the best i can aim for.
nevertheless, i feel a bit behind, making slightly suboptimal moves when compared with Dusk Eagle. still a long way to go
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 am
by emeraldemon
Laman:
Did you think about either a or b? What do you think of them?
$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:28 am
by Bill Spight
$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1My main comment is about how small
is in this plan. Black has a secure corner in the top left, and White has a secure corner in the bottom left. Therefore a play by the opponent near either corner does not really threaten anything, and therefore a play that threatens to play near either corner does not threaten much, either.
The top right corner is vulnerable, however. i would seriously consider an invasion at "a" instead.
$$Wcm1 Move #36, B+1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Move #36, B+1Backing up, I think that a play against the top right corner is good. The play in the game threatens to invade the bottom side, but Black is strong there.
Edit: Unhidden.
.
connects at 
? Look for Black to take the corner at "a" (as he did) or start a fight with "b". 
. 
is in this plan. Black has a secure corner in the top left, and White has a secure corner in the bottom left. Therefore a play by the opponent near either corner does not really threaten anything, and therefore a play that threatens to play near either corner does not threaten much, either.