Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

[John Fairbairn]

I think it's fair to say that there are, indeed, substances that can help go players. Given the length of some matches, amphetamines (and perhaps beta blockers) could certainly give an advantage to some players. Having a clear mind, and not being tired, could be the equivalent of a stone or more to the person who has that advantage.

This first point is already part of the lore of professional go in Japan (where long matches are still common), but in relation to choices for lunch. Noodles for stamina is an old stand-by (just as in marathon running). Not many games take place in August, but if they do, eel is top of the list. Kitani also admitted he piddled so much because he drank so much tea to help him think.

[Andd]

I think it's fair to say that there are, indeed, substances that can help go players. Given the length of some matches, amphetamines (and perhaps beta blockers) could certainly give an advantage to some players. Having a clear mind, and not being tired, could be the equivalent of a stone or more to the person who has that advantage.

This first point is already part of the lore of professional go in Japan (where long matches are still common), but in relation to choices for lunch. Noodles for stamina is an old stand-by (just as in marathon running). Not many games take place in August, but if they do, eel is top of the list. Kitani also admitted he piddled so much because he drank so much tea to help him think.

The comparison of amphetamines to food choices is a little shallow. I've had experience with prescribed amphetamines and they would have very powerful effect on players who were prone to distraction or mentally off (tired, sick). In the context of an actual go competition though... I think they would only noticeably be useful if the player was playing multiple matches. On the other hand, the milder side effects of amphetamines are just the kind to ruin a go game (anxiety, irritability, stomach pain).

[RobertJasiek]

if you have an example other than something you've invented with Xs, Ys and Zs, then it would be worth seeing.

My example is from prescribed medicine but you will understand that this information is private. Since I do not know other complicated chemical or drug names, I can only invent a pseudo-name to avoid using XXXXX-YYYYY: Suppose the prohibited list has hexaforotol and the medicine box carries hexaforotolbisulphate-4-glukol. This I would correlate. But if it were heptaforoboltrisulphate-5-glukol, then I would have no chance to recognize that an "etc." in the prohibited list might prohibit that, too.

But I fear you are simply trying to come up with complications that don't exist.

1) They do exist.

2) Some lists of names in the prohibited list are explicitly stated to be incomplete.

if you really need something on the list, you can get an exemption.

When travelling in a foreign country where the player does not speak the doctor's or drug store's language, this can be quite tough. Probably impossible. I recall similar talks: After 20 minutes of an attempt to tell exactly what one wants, the basic information "Do I need it - yes or no?" was still being misunderstood.

[ethanb]

I correspond pretty much to John's "head in the sand" view, I believe.

Which is odd, because I actually would have something to be concerned about. I have narcolepsy, and I don't even need to look at the list to be certain that my medication is on it (armodafinil, if anyone wants to check me.) It promotes wakefulness and is a holistic stimulant. Obviously aids concentration. And keeps me from falling asleep during the game.

So far, my plan to deal with it has been to not get strong enough to where it's a problem (as in I'm probably about #420 on the list of potential WAGC candidates.)

But if I somehow did magically attain pro-level strength, I'm pretty sure a doctor's note would see me through - I tend to give people (even bureaucracies) the benefit of the doubt until I see them act otherwise.

[RobertJasiek]

has been able to elicit quite a lot of details through private e-mails.

From actually reading rules and laws, listening to official statements, posing questions to officials in public, talking to officials and emails.

I'm not clear why Robert brought this up now.

1) I visited a doctor, got some medicine and only then noticed that, oops, it has a dangerously similar name as some on the IGF prohibited list. This made me aware that bringing Therapeutic Use Exemptions to a doctor only when expecting to get a restricted medicine was the wrong approach. Rather a player visiting a doctor or going to a drug store should always expect the possibility of the IGF prohibited list to become relevant and therefore always carry that list with him.

2) When just double checking, I noticed that the IGF webpage has published a new list of 2010. So my second surprise was that it was too naive to assume that my already locally stored list would be the right one.

3) The incident let me reflect again the position of a player he would have in front of a doping court. I have become aware that proving which rules and lists were valid and effective can be very tough and that information flow from IGF via national associations to the players and the players' support by their NAs is incomplete and misleading. Essentially players are left alone with their duties instead of getting profound support with all the new doping stuff.

[HermanHiddema]

Which is odd, because I actually would have something to be concerned about. I have narcolepsy, and I don't even need to look at the list to be certain that my medication is on it (armodafinil, if anyone wants to check me.) It promotes wakefulness and is a holistic stimulant. Obviously aids concentration. And keeps me from falling asleep during the game.

Yep, that's on there on page 7, section S6-a, as modafinil (armodafinil is the brand name).

Modafinil is one of the few substances that might actually enhance go performance, from what I've read.

[kirkmc]

My example is from prescribed medicine but you will understand that this information is private. Since I do not know other complicated chemical or drug names, I can only invent a pseudo-name to avoid using XXXXX-YYYYY: Suppose the prohibited list has hexaforotol and the medicine box carries hexaforotolbisulphate-4-glukol. This I would correlate. But if it were heptaforoboltrisulphate-5-glukol, then I would have no chance to recognize that an "etc." in the prohibited list might prohibit that, too.

Meds don't use names like that - those are chemical compounds, and the only place they show up in the list is as metabolites. Meds have single would molecule names.

When travelling in a foreign country where the player does not speak the doctor's or drug store's language, this can be quite tough. Probably impossible. I recall similar talks: After 20 minutes of an attempt to tell exactly what one wants, the basic information "Do I need it - yes or no?" was still being misunderstood.

You see, that's why they use the same molecule names for all meds. So the names are the same in different countries, and for researchers, so there's no confusion. They didn't just make this up. As I said, millions of athletes deal with this around the world, in different languages, and you can imagine that the same questions you have were dealt with many years ago when the system was established. But you have trouble with this; you think this system was just created to annoy go players.

[kirkmc]

1) I visited a doctor, got some medicine and only then noticed that, oops, it has a dangerously similar name as some on the IGF prohibited list. This made me aware that bringing Therapeutic Use Exemptions to a doctor only when expecting to get a restricted medicine was the wrong approach. Rather a player visiting a doctor or going to a drug store should always expect the possibility of the IGF prohibited list to become relevant and therefore always carry that list with him.

2) When just double checking, I noticed that the IGF webpage has published a new list of 2010. So my second surprise was that it was too naive to assume that my already locally stored list would be the right one.

3) The incident let me reflect again the position of a player he would have in front of a doping court. I have become aware that proving which rules and lists were valid and effective can be very tough and that information flow from IGF via national associations to the players and the players' support by their NAs is incomplete and misleading. Essentially players are left alone with their duties instead of getting profound support with all the new doping stuff.

A "dangerously similar name" is not the same. Ask the doctor; he'll tell you if you have doubts.

As for the update to the list, you can see, if you look, that the list is updated every January 1, and you are expected to have informed yourself about that to know that, in the fall, you can get a new list that applies the following January.

[kirkmc]

Which is odd, because I actually would have something to be concerned about. I have narcolepsy, and I don't even need to look at the list to be certain that my medication is on it (armodafinil, if anyone wants to check me.) It promotes wakefulness and is a holistic stimulant. Obviously aids concentration. And keeps me from falling asleep during the game.

Yep, that's on there on page 7, section S6-a, as modafinil (armodafinil is the brand name).

Modafinil is one of the few substances that might actually enhance go performance, from what I've read.

I think any stimulant could be a help, especially with international tournaments where some players may be jet-lagged.

[HermanHiddema]

I think any stimulant could be a help, especially with international tournaments where some players may be jet-lagged.

I agree. Anything that increases concentration (e.g. caffeine) or reduces anxiety (e.g. nicotine) may be of help to some players (i.e. those that lack concentration or are anxious). As long as there are no other effects, that is. In the section on stimulants, they also list MDMA (a.k.a. XTC), which I'm pretty sure isn't gonna help one bit.

I do think that any doping that increases go performance will be in those kinds of categories, reducing anxiety or increasing concentration. I don't think there's any drugs out there that will suddenly teach you new joseki.

[RobertJasiek]

Meds have single would molecule names.

On German boxes, typically one sees an artificial product name (which might be related to the effective substance or not), the effective substance's name in pretty much detail (can be greater detail than what the IGF list suggests), and the concentration / amount.

the same questions you have were dealt with many years ago when the system was established. But you have trouble with this; you think this system was just created to annoy go players.

The difference is that we go players, except you and a few others, still do not know all those "basics".

[kirkmc]

Meds have single would molecule names.

On German boxes, typically one sees an artificial product name (which might be related to the effective substance or not), the effective substance's name in pretty much detail (can be greater detail than what the IGF list suggests), and the concentration / amount.

the same questions you have were dealt with many years ago when the system was established. But you have trouble with this; you think this system was just created to annoy go players.

The difference is that we go players, except you and a few others, still do not know all those "basics".

On boxes anywhere in the EU - and most likely anywhere in the world outside the US - you see something like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... exotan.jpg

Brand name
Molecule name
Amount of medication
Number of pills/capsules/etc.

You'll note that while the brand name may be different in different countries, the molecule name is not. That's the whole point behind the way meds are labeled: there are standard words used for molecule names.

There's no "greater detail" than what the WADA list says; the molecule name is unique.

As for learning the basics, how hard is it? The IGF has the info, your country's go federation has it, and you are certainly well aware of it.

[HermanHiddema]

Also, the document IGF Anti-Doping Regulations on the page you link to seems quite complete. So what's your gripe?

It is incomplete because it misses the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement and contradicts the latter. Players should know that the latter overrides the IGF Anti-Doping Regulations. Not stating the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement at all is misleading the players.

After completely failing to understand the concept of "sportsmanship", you've now completely failed to understand the concept of "gentleman's agreement".

[RobertJasiek]

There's no "greater detail" than what the WADA list says; the molecule name is unique.

On boxes there can be greater detail because such has occurred.

Or do you suggest that always greater detail means a different molecule necessarily? If so, then I still wonder whether a greater detail name falls under "etc." in the IGF list.

[RobertJasiek]

After completely failing to understand the concept of "sportsmanship", you've now completely failed to understand the concept of "gentleman's agreement".

Since I do not assume it to mean "officials use it to cheat all players", I expect a gentleman's agreement that has been published by officials to players verbally to be applied. In particular, it has been said that there will not be any whereabouts doping tests. This I expect to be applied although it is based only on the gentleman's agreement and verbal statements made about it. For this, your assumption who has or has not understood what a gentleman's agreement is does not matter. What matters is what officials stated about the applicable contents.