Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:57 pm

"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not a criticism of :b4:

in the game, but this is another approach. It is difficult for White to reply on the 3-3.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:06 pm

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Having decided that there is nothing urgent on the right side, I'm going to look at the rest of the board.

There are moderately big plays at the top, but nothing urgent. There are bigger plays on the left side, but again, nothing urgent. On the bottom, there is an urgent issue: black can play N3. It ruins the shape of the corner, and deprives it of the natural extension along the lower side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So my next move has to deal with that. The easiest and simplest way is to play there or immediately nearby myself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Solid but unenterprising. 'A' works also. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W a . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another possibility is to play someplace along the bottom such that he can play N3, but the results are no good for him because he has insufficient room for an extension, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black is heavy with no eyes. Moves 'b' through 'g' also work. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . e f g . 3 . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . b c d W . 1 2 . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm going to choose the second possibility because the first looks too passive. I'm 2 stones behind, so I need to push him a bit. Which one? I think that I can dismiss the high moves 'e', 'f', and 'g' because they leave an open skirt and can be undercut too easily:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc White has no easy follow up move. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . W , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So it comes down to one of these:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . x x x x . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The leftmost one is the most ambitious. It prevents the formation of an easy extension by black, but its follow up move still leaves an invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Invasion possible at move 3 or later $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . W . . 2 . 3 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The next looks better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc No invasion, but flat. Hard to develop quickly. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . W . . 2 . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The next is my favorite, because it has a good follow up

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc No invasion likely, and I get influence $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . W . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lastly, the rightmost is too small for my tastes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc No invasion, and I get influence, but a tad small $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . W . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:57 am

Maybe that explains it, it appears Joaz is unaware that what Chew has played is joseki. I think White is too thin here. Black can't approach from the lower left easily, but then, that's not urgent anyway. He now has weak points to aim at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 c a b . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both "a" and "b" can cause White some locally reasonably serious issues now. Joseki was "a" or "b" in much the same way that is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 2 , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b a . . . 6 4 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:11 am

@topazg

@Chew

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:31 am

@loons, topazg:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:36 am

Loons wrote:@topazg
I may be a little rusty right now, but I am surprised we disagree again so soon. I think that Joaz' extension is joseki (not from any source, feels like a joseki and I'm sure I've seen it before). By way of local tactics- if Chew invades, I think Joaz lives with fair points in the corner (and is out) while Chew must look to his invading stone and Joaz has options concerning k3 (one stone is an aji!). - And if Chew doesn't invade, the further extension gives Joaz some options for efficiency. In a perfect world K3 would be independently bigger and Joaz would already have support with which to pressure R8, but for the start of a handicap game, I don't think these moves can really be faulted.

On a slight tangent; I think K3 extension is joseki in topazg's comparative position too, but modern style, I'm told, does favor tighter, thicker extensions (which can tenuki approaches easily).

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:47 am

@Loons

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:23 am

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:33 am

For beginners:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:...
Another possibility is to play someplace along the bottom such that he can play N3, but the results are no good for him because he has insufficient room for an extension, like this:

$$Bc Black is heavy with no eyes. Moves 'b' through 'g' also work.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . e f g . 3 . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b c d W . 1 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black is heavy with no eyes. Moves 'b' through 'g' also work. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . e f g . 3 . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . b c d W . 1 2 . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...

The idea behind this is that stones along the side like extensions for eye space.

The usual rule of thumb for doing this is to extend one more than the length of your wall, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B With one stone, extend two spaces $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . 1 . . X . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$-----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B With two stones, extend three spaces $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . X . . $$. . . . . 1 . . . X . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$-----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B With three stones, extend four spaces $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . X . . . $$. . . 1 . . . . X . . . $$. . . . . . . . X . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . . $$-----------------------[/go]

You have probably seen this formation in some of your games:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W You kick white, but he builds a comfortable place for eyes. $$. . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . 5 . . . 3 . X . . . | $$. . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

So, given that rule of thumb about extensions, let's go back to the game and its possible continuation, and look at comfortable extensions or lack of comfortable extensions. Black would like to wreck my shape with N3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black would like to have this. \nMove 5 could be at 'a' also. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . a . . . 3 . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . 1 2 . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black is cramped and inefficient if I have something like the circled stone. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 3 . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . W . 5 . 1 2 . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black has no room for an extension if I have the circled stone here. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 3 . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . 1 2 . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In summary, I'm willing to let black invade. I'm just trying to structure things so that he won't be happy after he does.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . O . c . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was originally going to play at this point. This is kind of aiming at several things. 'a' will expand and threaten the bottom middle, 'b' will fairly solidly claim the corner and prepare for a northward extension, and the move does eye an invasion at 'c' for later. The reason I almost played here in specific is, it prevents too much silliness in the corner, works well with the left side, and denies the approach. Next, I would have expected W to wedge the left side or approach one of the top stars from the top. Thinking about it, i eventually decided that the wedge there was just really big, and that I wanted that 'largest area on the board' for myself. So yeah... last second change of plans.

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:39 am

@ observing beginners

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:42 am

@chew:

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:48 am

Topazg:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:22 am

Life In 19x19

Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr