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Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:58 pm
by Simba
$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
The pincer lets me get an invasion in on the bottom. I considered the option below, but it looked too good for black:
Other option:
$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
I quite like playing this stone high here because of my hoshi stone in the top left. I read that generally when you have the adjacent hoshi stone like this, a high stone is better than a low one after the approach on move 13. Black's position seems very low on the bottom. Black playing around J4 would be good so he's not so low, and I don't see quite how to prevent that here. Black could either do that on his next move, or first exchange D2 for C3. I don't really like him getting this - it looks too good for black. So, I'll pincer instead. This allows me to invade the bottom directly.
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:48 pm
by EdLee
Simba,
Simba wrote: I considered the option below, but it looked too good for black
Why do you think it's too good for B?
Could you quantify it based on counting or some arguments,
or was it just a feeling that you cannot explain?
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:08 pm
by 1986
for obs
that last move was
i dont know if this is good for white
$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
i think i yangs book on fundamentals he says something like when the enemy has
stones nearby you pincer loose and when you have stones nearby you pincer tight
maybe a 2 or 3 space pincer would have worked better or a different joseki
its just a thought
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:29 pm
by Aphelion
I would happily dive into the corner as Black. The bottom is small, and blocking the other way ends in gote, so either way its a great situation.
$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re:
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:08 pm
by Simba
EdLee wrote: Simba,
Simba wrote: I considered the option below, but it looked too good for black
Why do you think it's too good for B?
Could you quantify it based on counting or some arguments,
or was it just a feeling that you cannot explain?
Well, if I did that, black gets a ton of space at the bottom that already looks fairly secure and I have very little to show for it in return (a little bit on the right and a small bit in the bottom left). Maybe I messed up on the right hand side... But that is joseki as far as I'm aware... Hmm... It looks like I'm quite far behind already though if I let black get all that at the bottom. The pincer allows me to get some of the bottom rather than awarding it all to black in exchange for a much less secure and smaller area on the left. I suck so badly at fuseki
...
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:29 pm
by Aphelion
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:22 pm
by Simba
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:25 pm
by Jordus
I feel very tempted to take the corner with (a)... that will give me control of 3 corners... making my main mode of play as now reducing whites chances of large moyos... hmmmm....
$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:18 pm
by Aphelion
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:20 pm
by Aphelion
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:23 am
by Simba
If I were to extend on D6? I read in a book that if you have the adjacent hoshi point in that direction (which I do at D16), you should favour the high extension over the low one. As for what I'm afraid of, well, it doesn't look trivial for me to erode much of his territory at the bottom after he gets in J4 especially. I could aim at L4 as I said, but that stone wouldn't have much room and would just get chased with black making profit while doing so. I'm probably missing something - like I said, my fuseki skills are terrible, but all I can go by is my logic
.
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:43 am
by EdLee
Simba,
Simba wrote: if I did that, black gets a ton of space at the bottom
Could you rank the relative sizes of the gaps:
(a)(between
and
);
(b)(between
and
);
(c)(
...
);
(d)(
...
)
from the biggest to the smallest...
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B...and how does this relate to your feeling of the urgency of (d)?
Re: Malkovich 113- Jordus v. Simba
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:44 am
by Loons
Aph / obs. only.
Simba is probably alluding to an allusion to this sort of local continuation. But evidently I am not a dependable source of good joseki
.
$$Bc W tenukis the marked stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc W tenukis the marked stone.
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:52 am
by EdLee
Simba,
Aphelion wrote: Simba: At Move 12, why high and not low?
Simba wrote: If I were to extend on D6?
No, I think Aph meant how did you decide between
(4th line) versus (a) 3rd line:
$$Bm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11
Re:
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:58 am
by Simba
EdLee wrote: Simba,
Simba wrote: if I did that, black gets a ton of space at the bottom
Could you rank the relative sizes of the gaps:
(a)(between
and
);
(b)(between
and
);
(c)(
...
);
(d)(
...
)
from the biggest to the smallest...
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B...and how does this relate to your feeling of the urgency of (d)?
EdLee wrote: Simba,
Aphelion wrote: Simba: At Move 12, why high and not low?
Simba wrote: If I were to extend on D6?
No, I think Aph meant how did you decide between
(4th line) versus (a) 3rd line:
$$Bm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11
Ahhh, okay, I see. Well, because black has strength in the top right, so I'd rather take a more secure, low move than a high move. It's kind of the other side of the reason as to why I was going to play high in response to black's approach at F3
.
...
and 
and 
... 
... 
(4th line) versus (a) 3rd line: