Life In 19x19

And, while he does, this is my plan:

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[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hopefully making miai of "a" and "b". Looks like this could be an exciting game.

Why do you like that ? It would never have occurred to me to play like that... it looks like a hugely broken shape.

jts wrote:Why do you like that ?... it looks like a hugely broken shape.

That's not a broken shape. W is pincering and attacking B's R11 group.
That said, W does not have to play there, since the left side and bottom are still very open.

Is it generally considered good to jump around the corner like that in a pushing fight? Or is it something specific about this opening?

jts wrote:Is it generally considered good to jump around the corner like that in a pushing fight? Or is it something specific about this opening?

Do you mean the upper right corner? There are many, many joseki variations starting with .

No, sorry, not that corner. I meant this pattern.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------[/go]

Yes, it is the same corner. Upper right corner.
Same answer: there are many, many joseki variations starting with , and some "spill over" along the right side.

Right, but we are not going to find many that involve White invading between two Black positions like this. Normally White attacks with from some other stones in the lower right. topazg may be over doing it here.

In essence, yeah, it is kind of a broken shape. However, it also destabilises Black's group, which no longer really has two eyes (1.5 I think). So, how does it differ from this clearly broken and bad shape?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's just a matter of distance. For one thing, Black could of course play @ Q10, and I'm likely to simply lose out on the edge, and secondly, it's harder for me to find a way of looking after in general. Looking after that stone in some way is important, as the idea here is to force Black out whilst I neutralise Black's right side development.

I'm also not entirely convinced it's globally bigger than the bottom side or the left side, although out of the two I'd somewhat prioritise the lower side. However, my reasoning for playing it now is as follows:

When Black chose to extend rather than jump, he chose to develop the right hand side with a bend (at least, that's the normal continuation). Hence the diagram I showed with a crazy fight developing in the top right a couple of moves ago. If he gets to play that bend, it's pretty annoying for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

may be a bit soft, but even if he doesn't kill, sealing in with outstanding thickness is very worrying for me. Not only that, but I can't play a bit looser and hope things go any better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is still a world of hurt for White, so if I'm going to pincer, it has to be before he gets that bend in. Why pincer at all?

Well, my local followups fix the fact he hasn't yet settled his group, and quickly give him 4th line territory that's hard to invade:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's no way now I can prevent him making 30 or so points, and I just can't get compensation for that, leading me to believe that moving over the top with is not particularly clever. Of course, I can't afford to pincer and end up attacked a la the previous diagram, so having miai of base + connect is very valuable indeed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 w20 could also be at "a"
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pressing Black down in this way is a great result for Black - it destroys the development that Black wanted to make with the lower right corner (i.e. fast development on the right side), and allows me to keep sente to boot. Because I can make a two space extension towards the lower right in some way, I have enough space to play with that I should be very hard to attack. If Black extends out, I have to jump, and I assume he'll extend out again or the first one seems lacking in purpose. As I want to develop the lower side as well, I'm going to try a probe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now my continuation is entirely based on the way he chooses to respond. If he blocks on top:

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[go]$$Bcm23 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . e . X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . c W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As the ladder starting with the cut at "a" is favourable for me, I'll probably use this as an opportunity to handle the lower side, I need to be slightly careful not to come under attack, but the immediate points value is obvious, and I still have moves like "b" to help settle the group. If he decides to look after his corner with "c", I can jump out with "d" and Black's falling behind. As a result, I expect he'll resist with "e", and after I hane, there are too many possibilities to write out. It may be that "e" should be my move instead of this , but I'll have a closer look if happens. If he blocks on the side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm23 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I now get in sente, and can attack more forcefully.

The other advantage of pincering now, is the exchange that he chose not to make is now more uncomfortable for him:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's hard to treat this as entirely gote now, because Black needs his own eyespace, which may mean that gets to be my privilege later on. Not entirely convinced of course, and vaguely suspicious that this may be overplay. I perhaps should have played O3 first and left this as a resource for later, but the fact that the bend in joseki makes me think that this may just be urgent enough to play.

Frankly, I don't have a clue

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

seems a fight will ensue, i feel ok with this fight but i didn't expect he would invade there directly.

In stalkor's variation, perhaps B can first do the (b)-(c) exchange to give W a dumpling shape before jumping out.

stalkor wrote:

$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 3 O b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 3 O b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have a similiar feeling. It's like inviting black to cut through large knight's move.
But nowadays, some josekis are filled with broken shapes as well. So maybe broken is nothing wrong, if you can fight.

ez4u wrote:Right, but we are not going to find many that involve White invading between two Black positions like this.
Normally White attacks with from some other stones in the lower right. topazg may be over doing it here.

Dave, I agree. was arguably even a jealous move -- clearly the left side and the bottom were both wide open?

I've decided to follow up my bottom probe differently:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 4 . X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT: Reason being, there's absolutely no point in forcing Black to start a splitting attack.

My spider senses are beginning to tell me I'm being greedy though.