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33. Magicwand (3d) vs. zinger (1d)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=434

Page 3 of 18

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:08 am
by Magicwand
topazg wrote:To prokofiev:

This would worry me as Black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 8 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 X 2 1 3 X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 7 O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

your variation doesnt look good for white. i would never play that.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:09 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:15 am
by topazg
Magicwand wrote:
your variation doesnt look good for white. i would never play that.


Ok, I'm not that happy with it either, but it would make me uncomfortable - White is hardly happier with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X 2 1 3 X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 6 O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:19 am
by Magicwand
topazg wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
your variation doesnt look good for white. i would never play that.


Ok, I'm not that happy with it either, but it would make me uncomfortable - White is hardly happier with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X 2 1 3 X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 6 O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but i dont mind fighting this way
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 1 3 X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:24 am
by unkx80
Okay for players to see.
Zinger's idea is very interesting. An example can be found on SL at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoPreparation
However, my feeling is that Zinger probably should have prepared a larger ko threat. This ko threat seemed a bit on the small side.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:29 am
by zinger
unkx80 wrote:Okay for players to see.
Zinger's idea is very interesting. An example can be found on SL at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoPreparation
However, my feeling is that Zinger probably should have prepared a larger ko threat. This ko threat seemed a bit on the small side.


Looking at the board now, I agree. But I think it's still a game.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:34 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am happy about this. I was worried about other ways white might use the aji. For example, descending would give white an atari on top or a relationship with the 3-3 point. Now I don't need to worry about that. It feels like white is using the aji too soon, losing future options.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:35 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:03 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was wondering if white would take the time to play there. Anyway I don't think I can afford to take gote to connect, even though the difference in thickness is large. White 1 would be too good. Besides, later I might want to cut at S12 in ko instead of connecting.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:29 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Although Magicwand is a better fighter than I, I have to question this play. It is as though Black has already replied to :w1: with :bc:. Maybe it is not the best reply, but it still reduces the effect of :w1:.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:02 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . W 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ok sofar i believe he has some weaknesses i can take advantage of. now i am not afraid of making it complicated.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:25 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This doesn't feel terrible. His bottom side territory will be pretty big, but if I can limit it, build strength facing the right side, and keep the 3-3 invasion in play, I will consider it a success.

I briefly considered the inside hane but this doesn't seem like a good place to pick a fight, with white's thickness looming nearby.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:31 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

you can either be moyo lover or point lover.
although i play moyo time to time. i always think about points.
and if i think i can win by few points i will play extreamly timid just enough to win.
to do that i must build points first.
i am hoping points will come from bottom side.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:36 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really expected him to extend to the left, not down. Anyway 1 looks automatic to keep the moyo in check.

Re: 33. Magicwand v. zinger

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:39 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X W . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i love points...
All times are UTC-07:00
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