Life In 19x19

snorri wrote:E.g., computers may become so good at go that the occupation withers or disappears, even compared to today.

Chess says, "Hi!" Just because computers are good at chess doesn't mean that there are less people going pro or staying pro.

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Toge wrote:What does it mean to "sacrifice education" to study something? Is there some kind of archaic list of occupations thou shall educate in lest you disgrace your family? Instilling neurotic fear and doubt doesn't sound like a good way to bring up children. Surely I would support study of Go.

The difference is that focusing on normal education at the expense of Go is highly likely to pay off in the future, whereas if you focus on Go at the expense of normal education but fail to become a pro, you're in a bad/difficult situation.

If you're happy doing what you do then you're never in a bad/difficult situation.

lovely wrote:

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Toge wrote:What does it mean to "sacrifice education" to study something? Is there some kind of archaic list of occupations thou shall educate in lest you disgrace your family? Instilling neurotic fear and doubt doesn't sound like a good way to bring up children. Surely I would support study of Go.

The difference is that focusing on normal education at the expense of Go is highly likely to pay off in the future, whereas if you focus on Go at the expense of normal education but fail to become a pro, you're in a bad/difficult situation.

If you're happy doing what you do then you're never in a bad/difficult situation.

But if you're forced to do a job you hate to pay the bills because your go career didn't pan out and there are no other jobs available, you won't be happy with what you do.

Dusk Eagle wrote:

lovely wrote:If you're happy doing what you do then you're never in a bad/difficult situation.

But if you're forced to do a job you hate to pay the bills because your go career didn't pan out and there are no other jobs available, you won't be happy with what you do.

... then just spend a bit less, so at least you don't have to do the crappy job full time! I'm not convinced that you have to live a luxurious life to be happy. (though admittedly, living cheaply might be more difficult in the US than it is here in Europe, that I don't know.)

[mod]A post was removed due to the questionable nature of the joke it carried.[/mod]

Helel wrote:

Chew Terr wrote:[mod]A post was removed due to the questionable nature of the joke it carried.[/mod]

And of course I was the culprit.

It almost goes without saying.

gaius wrote:

Dusk Eagle wrote:

lovely wrote:If you're happy doing what you do then you're never in a bad/difficult situation.

But if you're forced to do a job you hate to pay the bills because your go career didn't pan out and there are no other jobs available, you won't be happy with what you do.

... then just spend a bit less, so at least you don't have to do the crappy job full time! I'm not convinced that you have to live a luxurious life to be happy. (though admittedly, living cheaply might be more difficult in the US than it is here in Europe, that I don't know.)

It's harder to just make that choice in the US--it doesn't just mean sacrificing luxuries, but it also complicates your healthcare and your child's education. If you're making a choice between really high status jobs (doctor, lawyer) and something a little less prestigious, you can just cut luxuries. But if you actually meant getting a blue-collar job, that's quite different.

Good question, I'd probably say him than one passion shouldn't kill all other ones... Several passions is better to avoid big deceptions.

If any of my children show both passion and aptitude for Go, Chess, Music, Starcraft, Soccer or any other skill where true careers are one in a million, my support will be proportionate to their talent and ability. I would most likely encourage a 7 year old Go player who's hit 3 dan already, but probably not an 11 year old who's still 8k (for a career anyway, as a hobby it would be awesome )

I will always encourage my children to strive for success in anything, but I also want to teach them pragmatism

</lurk>

hyperpape wrote:

gaius wrote:

Dusk Eagle wrote:But if you're forced to do a job you hate to pay the bills because your go career didn't pan out and there are no other jobs available, you won't be happy with what you do.

... then just spend a bit less, so at least you don't have to do the crappy job full time! I'm not convinced that you have to live a luxurious life to be happy. (though admittedly, living cheaply might be more difficult in the US than it is here in Europe, that I don't know.)

It's harder to just make that choice in the US--it doesn't just mean sacrificing luxuries, but it also complicates your healthcare and your child's education. If you're making a choice between really high status jobs (doctor, lawyer) and something a little less prestigious, you can just cut luxuries. But if you actually meant getting a blue-collar job, that's quite different.

I've never been to the US, but I have heard this kind of story quite often. It always amazes me that people in the US accept this. I've heard people say that the US is supposed to be the country of opportunities, but that seems kind of tough if following your dreams means that you have to fear for your healthcare and for your children's education! It feels wrong to not have at least a basic backup for those who don't succeed in achieving their goal on the first try.

By the way, by "blue collar jobs" you mean people that actually work with their hands, right? They are super-important to a country! Is your state also one of those places where a factory worker cannot afford a good healthcare insurance? I've never understood that it's apparently considered all right to collectively under-reward hard-working people to such an extent.

But yeah, if you live in the US, then maybe it does indeed make sense to discourage your children from following their dreams.

The world remains a strange place

gaius wrote:I've heard people say that the US is supposed to be the country of opportunities, but that seems kind of tough if following your dreams means that you have to fear for your healthcare and for your children's education!

Well, when 10 prior generations manage to do so just fine you have to start looking about at the world around you and wondering at exactly what point everything went stark-raving mad. The usual suspects are when the government decided it's "helping," in typical ham-fist, short-sited fashion but that's off-topic.

But yeah, if you live in the US, then maybe it does indeed make sense to discourage your children from following their dreams.

No matter where you live it makes sense to discourage your children from pursuing their dreams on the largess of their neighbors, certainly. Self-sufficiency is important. Otherwise you run the risk of being overrun by a generation of washed-out insei, wannabe pop-stars, former athletes, and a bunch of out-of-work graphic designers.

A good parallel is actually football. Even if one of my sons has the talent to land a scholarship to some big football school like U.S.C. or Texas you'd better believe I'll expect him to attend his classes and bother to major in something that can pay his bills. Dreams are great, but for every multi-million-dollar NFL star there are dozens of college wash-outs that had the same talent but suffered a random knee or shoulder injury that ended their career before it even got started. Likewise for every Go professional there's a horde of insei wash-outs.

That's why every student-athlete should know better than to trade away a degree-in-the-hand for a contract-in-the-bush.

- Marty Lund

gaius wrote:I've never been to the US, but I have heard this kind of story quite often. It always amazes me that people in the US accept this. I've heard people say that the US is supposed to be the country of opportunities, but that seems kind of tough if following your dreams means that you have to fear for your healthcare and for your children's education! It feels wrong to not have at least a basic backup for those who don't succeed in achieving their goal on the first try.

For better or worse, the US has a sort of ideal of entrepreneurship. So when people talk about it being the land of opportunity, they primarily meant the opportunity to improve your material conditions. It also means that the ideal is "opportunities" more so than results. All this is meant to be descriptive, mind you--I don't want too much of a political discussion here.

gaius wrote:By the way, by "blue collar jobs" you mean people that actually work with their hands, right? They are super-important to a country! Is your state also one of those places where a factory worker cannot afford a good healthcare insurance? I've never understood that it's apparently considered all right to collectively under-reward hard-working people to such an extent.

I believe the point about being on the lower end of the pile holds across most developed nations. It's more extreme in the US because inequality is higher here: those at the bottom make less, those at the top make more than elsewhere.

Btw: blue collar was probably the wrong choice: you'd be surprised what some construction foremen, skilled welders, crane operators, etc. can make. Nothing to tempt a doctor, but much more than you'd expect given the educational requirements. The most striking thing is the steady decline in the number of blue collar jobs available. What I really should have said is low-skill or low-skilled service sector.

The "Swedish" troubadour Cornelis Vreeswijk? Shame on you for such heresy!

That song is excellent though. It's a pretty wicked twist at the end.

Also, congratulations on posting something that's... extra... family friendly! I see you thoroughly understand this forum's guidelines now

mlund wrote:
Well, when 10 prior generations manage to do so just fine you have to start looking about at the world around you and wondering at exactly what point everything went stark-raving mad.

I think it's impossible to generalize the last 10 generations as "getting by just fine". Getting by has meant different things for each generation, and to be fair, a number of those generations were spent in rapid expansion, grabbing "free" land. Don't want to drag this off-topic, but just sayin...

In any case, I agree that you should have backup plans, and being insei, unless you already live in Japan makes that difficult.

rubin427 wrote:No.
Sorry Kid.
Why don't you meet a nice girl?

So I read this blog post the other day. It completely changed my view of what it meant to be a insei.

If it's true that insea obligations fall mostly on the weekend, that implies that it's possible for a kid to attend school and pull 'C's (or the japanese equivalent) all the while.

For some reason, I thought the insei program was an evelven-hour-a-day, six-days-a-week death march.

I might warm to the idea.