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Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:49 pm
by Loons
@Emerus
May I ask what you're anticipating, for the next couple of moves?

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:57 pm
by emerus
Loons wrote:@Emerus
May I ask what you're anticipating, for the next couple of moves?


This next white move is a real swing imo. Does he take the corner or play on the left? So I really haven't anticipated anything beyond that.

I do want to settle the left if I can.

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:10 am
by Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #24
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

i was missing the cut a bit until now, but it has grown pretty big. i would also love to play on the left side to stabilise my group and prevent black getting base there, but then he could connect, his group would become to attack and he could return to the upper-right side

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:59 am
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #25
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I wonder what his plan is. As far as I can tell this cut is gote and I can make a nice position on the left. Interesting.

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:18 pm
by Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #26
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O W . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

easy one

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:48 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #27
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:01 am
by Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #28
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X W . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

straightforward. i could atari black's one stone, but that would be a thank-you move with no profit for me

my position looks quite disadvantageous. actually, if i played an even game with someone four stones weaker than me, i would expect him to stand better after 30 moves than i do right now. one of those sad moments...

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:06 am
by hyperpape
Laman, observers
Assuming you take Laman's assessment of the position seriously, where did White go wrong? It seems like the lower left and lower right have gone inconsistently, but I'm not really sure.

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:19 am
by Laman
hyperpape:
hyperpape wrote:Laman, observers:

Assuming you take Laman's assessment of the position seriously, where did White go wrong? It seems like the lower left and lower right have gone inconsistently, but I'm not really sure.

up to my kakari at the lower right, it was still a pro game (see post #19). so it could be the first dubious move. on the following move, i could have pushed at Q5 instead of descent R6, leading to a slight variation of joseki, allowing me to extend along the right side. last, maybe i shouldn't have cut black at lower left after all and instead extend along the left side, forcing him to do something about his stones

anyway, i should stop crying (which i abhor at others) and instead focus on doing something nasty. though my assessment of situation from the previous post holds, it is still only like giving some handi to an even opponent and one has not too bad chance to win a game handicapped 2-3 stones wrong

otherwise, i see this game as a proof that everyone has style and that it affects your playing ability in a specific game (as opposed to opinions like "amateurs don't have a style" or "shouldn't have a style"). Cho Hanseung managed the situation much better than me, but still i wouldn't feel good as white in his game

and last, not long ago i saw someone writing that he is okay with losing if his opponent is superior and outplays him, but hates when he makes dumb mistakes that loses him an otherwise playable game. for me it is sort of opposite - if i make a blunder, i think "pff, it sucks, but i can still beat him, he's not that strong" or if the damage can't be repaired, i can look forward to a rematch. however, i hate when i try to do my best and even then everything goes wrong and he just beats me to a pulp no matter what i try

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:06 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #29
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #29
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This position is a little more concerning than I thought it would be. My first instinct move is :bc:, allowing myself to be cut and following through in the upper left. However, the gap at :w4: worries me. I think I can give ground in this fight and be satisfied?

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:16 pm
by Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

hmm, this is solid, but i feel black would better off with an extension along the side. i don't know which specific move would be the best, as there are always some issues with the atari left behind, yet pressing my corner stones outvalues them in my opinion

for me, play in this area is a must, with two unsettled groups facing each other. i considered playing one space closer to black, to deny him any space on the left side, but it would leave an effective counter:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 41-1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

black 1 is not something you invite when it would leave you with two weak groups and no prey to hunt

now black stones on the left look about as useful as my ones on the right

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:28 pm
by Loons
Laman's last move is, like M5, exactly what I would play. I find it interesting that similarly ranked players' moves converge quite a lot; of course, however, my thought to invade top right at R14 rather than the 3-3 point did not seem to have occured to either player (and the 3-3 not to me, somehow..?).

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:03 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #31
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O B X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #31
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O a X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That move makes a lot of sense. Now it's between defending at 'a' or the big corner at 'b'.

I think that white's g3 group and m5 group have a pretty negative relationship(what does that even mean?) and so I don't want to leave the cut behind for white to take advantage of.

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:27 am
by Jedo
emerus' last move seems a little heavy to me. What about this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 141. emerus (1d) vs Laman (1d)

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:30 am
by hyperpape
@Jedo
Looks better to me too.