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Araban vs Magicwand II

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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:38 pm
by ez4u
SoDesuNe wrote:
The attachment, Magicwand played, is not even mentioned in Takao's 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


'a' and 'b' are the most common moves.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . b , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This is mentioned, although it is not labelled as a Joseki (see below). After :w5:, Black can either defend at 'a' ("correct shape") which would locally invite White to make a pincer at 'b' or he plays 'b' himself and when White plays 'c'. Black can extend to 'd'. That is, when the top is more important.
Here I would play :b6: at 'b' because of the marked Komoku.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc One example
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . 3 , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . 4 . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This is labelled as a "quasi-Joseki", meaning "a Joseki that is less well established than or not as important".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Another possibility
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Black can play 'a' or 'b'. Both are quasi-Joseki.


post scriptum:
Ishida says: The attachment below is unfavorable with this pincer. But he does not give further explanations.

Interestingly there are 25 games in the latest GoGoD with this attachment in an otherwise empty quarter of the board. However, 16 of the games are pro-ama or ama-ama games. So indeed the pros do not seem to have too high an opinion of it. Five of the nine pro-pro games continued with :b1: - :b3: below and then split apart with White play from "a" through "d". Naturally there were a wide variety of outside situations. In choosing "b" (which is close to "a" as well), MW is in company with people like Sakata and Rin Kaiho, so let's not be shaking our heads too much at this stage!
:grumpy:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Search Pattern
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . d . . 2 O 1 . |
$$ . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . b . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:03 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This shoulder hit aims to make it painful for him to push out directly (since he'd be pushing me on the 4th line). So he'll have to figure out a way to dance out of here without pushing me. Furthermore, this move adds some stability to my group. Don't get me wrong though; his group isn't really in that much danger. It's just a matter of pressuring.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:21 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


my style of playing...

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:23 am
by Tooveli
Exciting match-up! :clap:

Looks like it should be an interesting game. I already like Black a lot (though I'm not saying Black is ahead). Magicwand has the completely opposite style to me. I'd feel so uncomfortable as White, I don't know how to handle groups like the upper right or lower right properly whereas Black's groups all have a clear meaning. Playing against groups like White's is much easier (for me) than playing with them. It feels like the burden is on White to find efficient ways to use those stones - which, thinking about it, probably explains why Magicwand likes to play this way. :)

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:52 am
by Marcus
I really like watching both MW and Araban in their games.

Observers:
The White stones seem to make perfect sense to me from this board. I might not have thought to play like White is playing, but I like the strength that seems to be in the White positions. Have I watched too many MW games, maybe? His play is very influence-oriented, to my eyes ...

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:43 am
by moonrabbit
What an interesting position!

Thanks, guys, for playing this game. :clap:

My eye keeps coming back to a point like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . Y . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing on the top feels very slow, but I'd want to help out :bt: somehow. Another big move is the approach in the upper left, and :bc: potentially helps support a pincer. Also I'd want to get some influence to limit White.

Can't wait to see where this goes.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:05 pm
by topazg
Especially as M16 is high, having it swallowed on an epic scale is just so painful, so much of the stuff I like about Black's position would disappear in an instant. I'm feel araban will respond to this latest move on the top.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:21 pm
by emerus
Isn't this like a textbook example of m16 being placed perfectly to prevent W from developing? I find it real interesting that MagicWand resisted like this.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:00 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . X . . W , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My last move clearly supports M16. But why is supporting one stone so important? Simply, White's group is still not stable. In particular, the connection (marked) has holes that I can now look to exploit with the support of K16. Without it, I have to worry about moves like L17, so it'd be an overplay to try and exploit and peep White's group with just 1 stone.

Now White needs to figure out a way to support his group without being slow. If he plays elsewhere, I may not attack it right away but it will always be a thorn on his side. And I think that's an important concept that took me a long time to grasp: you don't need to try and exploit weaknesses in your opponent's group straight away. Put yourself in your opponent's mindset; if you find it just as painful to play a slow, reinforcing move, then maybe it's better to just leave it be and let the weakness haunt and worry your opponent.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:22 pm
by prokofiev
@ Araban (or anyone else, including Magicwand)

My instinct was one space further, at J16. Is there a specific refutation to that, or would it just be a liability in an upcoming fight in this area? What specific weaknesses does J16 leave?

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:33 pm
by Magicwand
O12 IS MY ANSWER
Wthat my opponent played is correct because it is looking to cut my weakness
If J16 then i dont have any weakness

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:34 pm
by emerus
prokofiev wrote:@ Araban (or anyone else, including Magicwand)

My instinct was one space further, at J16. Is there a specific refutation to that, or would it just be a liability in an upcoming fight in this area? What specific weaknesses does J16 leave?


There are some natural weaknesses to the 2 space jump. The one most relevant here is probably L16.

As Araban posted, he's aiming at O15/N14 connections and having a solid shape makes that approach much more severe. Basically, he's playing honte in preparation to attack.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:27 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@ prokofiev: Hopefully MW and emerus answered your question; my short answer is that it's a little thin for its purpose if you compare it to the move I played.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words; since I have a hard time trying to explain my move in a succinct and direct way, let me just post this diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
It's not quite the same idea, but kind-of sort-of the same jist; except my corner has more aji so it's even more urgent.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:35 pm
by Loons
My first thought is to play F16, but perhaps D10 now is calmer? Looking forward a lot to the next move.

Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:39 pm
by daniel_the_smith
D13? Might be MW's style.
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