Life In 19x19

I will check-out Glicko, had never heard of it. Thanks

We have made updates to the site with more information. Visit http://kaya.gs to check out it. I have included some of the features that the server will include.

There's also Glicko-2. You can read about both of them here: http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html

Also, you might be interested in Jeff Sonas's work on ratings:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=562

the ASR is going to do some events with gabriel to help him out raising money

check out here http://www.advancedstudyroom.com/ASR/?p=1073 for the first event

Good luck.

Imho it is very difficult to establish a new go server nowadays. You will need the right player base much more urgently than the best interface, so I would invest more in translating services than programming. Even a server like OGS suffers from lack of players, 1k upwards the population is very small and this is a turn based server that can cope with a small population much better. I really wonder whether it is all the fancy features that draw people to e.g. WBaduk or the possibility to find an even opponent within seconds. To me it is clearly the second.

Best Tapir

Wouldn't it be easier to simply implement the web-app spectator modes with an existing go server?

It seems like a lot of effort to build a new car to show off your stereo system...

tapir wrote:

karaklis wrote:Why do you think this escaper policy is bad? Which one would you think is better? Everybody here is complaining about the escaper policy of KGS, but I haven't seen anybody complaining about the others' escaper systems.

Those who like the system on KGS don't complain all the day long. It is because KGS reacts on community complaints that you find so much complaints about KGS policies. I wish you good luck to try the same with an asian server who is earning money with asian customers and is offering its services as a freebee to Americans / Europeans. There were times when you couldn't even create an account on cyberoro.

Really? KGS reacts to community complaints about it's escaper system? I guess you could call Mef's "I've heard it all before so I don't think it's worth responding (my paraphrase)," a reaction, but just because we don't know if and how asian servers have responded to criticism and suggestions (do we know?) is no reason to assume that they don't or haven't. Indeed, whether or not the escaper system on asian servers is a subject for discussion in the world beyond L19 is hard to discern.

What we do know however, is that we, the L19 community, complain all the time here and mostly to each other about KGS's escaper policy, and we don't do the same about the escaper policies on other servers. Maybe this is because for some unfathomable reason we consider it more likely that complaints about KGS might bring about a change, but probably it's just that we (at least some of us) see more things about the escaper system to complain about.

shapenaji wrote:Wouldn't it be easier to simply implement the web-app spectator modes with an existing go server?

It seems like a lot of effort to build a new car to show off your stereo system...

Its actually impossible to do that.And much much worse.

Imho it is very difficult to establish a new go server nowadays. You will need the right player base much more urgently than the best interface, so I would invest more in translating services than programming. Even a server like OGS suffers from lack of players, 1k upwards the population is very small and this is a turn based server that can cope with a small population much better. I really wonder whether it is all the fancy features that draw people to e.g. WBaduk or the possibility to find an even opponent within seconds. To me it is clearly the second.

Of course the user base is the most important thing. And you get a user-base with a better server. Im guessing you were not around in the IGS days when KGS just showed up. People were saying "its impossible to build a new one, in igs you get a game in 1 minute, in kgs... ".

What i can confidently say is that the difference between KGS and KAYA.gs is bigger than the difference between IGS and KGS. And we are not looking to be "as big as kgs" we are building a server better than Tygem. Our goal is to be #1.

This is something new and powerful and different. As go players we wont be playing in KGS or Tygem in 2020. There has to be a next step and this is it. A server where people can contribute to making it bigger and better.

So as far as the server revolution, let me tell you that i was there and stood for KGS when it was new. It was about doing one of two things: you either stick with what you have, or ride the wave of the next generation.

Kaya.gs is giving an opportunity no other server ever gave: for you to get involved and be acknowledged for it. You can support us and be from the first people that wanted to see how the future was going to be. Its something to be proud to make a 'bet' for something that will give value to go players all around the world.

So far all the people that have made a pledge for us are really looking forward on how Kaya.gs is going to be and what its going to bring to the community.

If you still dont see some of the things Kaya.gs will be able to solve, visit the Feature section in the website. http://kaya.gs.

Kaya.gs wrote:Of course the user base is the most important thing. And you get a user-base with a better server.
...
What i can confidently say is that the difference between KGS and KAYA.gs is bigger than the difference between IGS and KGS. And we are not looking to be "as big as kgs" we are building a server better than Tygem. Our goal is to be #1.
...
As go players we wont be playing in KGS or Tygem in 2020. There has to be a next step and this is it. A server where people can contribute to making it bigger and better.
...
Its something to be proud to make a 'bet' for something that will give value to go players all around the world.

Well, there is something like path dependency = often the worse design wins just by being available earlier. You will need language support for the more relevant go populations. Right from the beginning, if your plans are to be number 1.

Another question that pops up when I read about free video streams for everyone.

What is the business plan? How do you plan to finance labour and other expenses after the initial investment? Tygem and WBaduk and IGS are business enterprises afaik, people pay to play there. If there is a relevant income stream, who will own the server, when it is financed now with community venture capital?

tapir wrote:
Well, there is something like path dependency = often the worse design wins just by being available earlier. You will need language support for the more relevant go populations. Right from the beginning, if your plans are to be number 1.

Another question that pops up when I read about free video streams for everyone.

What is the business plan? How do you plan to finance labour and other expenses after the initial investment? Tygem and WBaduk and IGS are business enterprises afaik, people pay to play there. If there is a relevant income stream, who will own the server, when it is financed now with community venture capital?

There is a business plan, but im not going to go public with it now as it can change a lot over the course of the first few months. It will be free to play, that's certain.

Of course, my partner and i are owners of the server. If you want to invest to get ownership you can talk to me in private,we are currently dealing with investors.

This crowdfunding opportunity is limited. In less than 60 days it will be closed off and we wont hand out founder accounts , the documentary on how we are building it, the first games games of the server will have passed by then. This support helps us build a better demo to show to future investors and to get a good head-start on its development.

daal wrote:What we do know however, is that we, the L19 community, complain all the time here and mostly to each other about KGS's escaper policy, and we don't do the same about the escaper policies on other servers. Maybe this is because for some unfathomable reason we consider it more likely that complaints about KGS might bring about a change, but probably it's just that we (at least some of us) see more things about the escaper system to complain about.

There is the fact that the people who do like the system don't complain.

daal wrote:What we do know however, is that we, the L19 community, complain all the time here

not all we here -- only a few vocal few here

xed_over wrote:

daal wrote:What we do know however, is that we, the L19 community, complain all the time here

not all we here -- only a few vocal few here

OK, ok. I just meant that within this L19 community KGS and not other servers is often the target of complaints about the escaper policy. But this thread is of course not the place to continue discussing it, so let me chime in with others looking forward to (another) escaper-complaint free server.

This server seems like an interesting project (as many have said very ambitious). I must admit I see a lot of challenges, and it seems like a lot of the ideas will require a large infrastructure in place (ex: sending problem sets out to people with beginning accounts, managing the bandwidth of every user potentially having streaming video). I definitely think that if they are going to try and do this full time they will need to find some sort of sponsor, and will certainly need support from East Asian countries (you say you have a business plan so hopefully you have this aspect covered or at least a solution in the works). I think one thing that seems promising about this project is that it is just two people who believe they have recognized specific things they feel are lacking in other available go outlets. It seems like the projects that actually end up working are the ones that have one or two dedicated people with a simple goal, as opposed to a large group with vague lofty dreams. One thing I might suggest is taking a look at the currently "launching" EuroGoServer and see if you can glean any lessons learned (what are they doing right, what are they doing wrong?).

If I had to make a prediction.....



and unrelated:

I just ran across this which I thought was interesting.

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11 ... bout-HTML5

I find this interesting, I might even put money behind it but:

• Show me some working code, please.
  I'm sorry, but I work with Change Management for a living and I see so many "almost working" projects getting stuck on something very fundamental (e.g. handling synchronous(!)/asynchronous communication). You having some fundamental working code (I don't need to see it) to show us will inspire confidence in you. For me, this is a must before I give you any money what so ever.
• What are your non-functional requirements?
  You have an impressive list of functional requirements. What about the non-functional requirements? How do you plan to meet them?
  For a project such as this I expect that you provide an architecture for the service.

I don't want to be negative, and I do hope you can do this. But you do ask for money - our money. How do we know you put them to good use? Do you even have the necessary skills? You need to give us more than "because I say so"