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hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5283

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Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:25 pm
by Ortho
@Ed Lee
Can you please explain why? 21 seems to take more territory and threaten a later monkey jump.

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:35 pm
by OtakuViking
Trigger thingy. Btw, copy my board and you can use numbers 4,5,6 etc.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:42 pm
by illluck
@Ortho:
Because the white block will likely be sente sooner than a black move.
Mmm, I would tenuki white 21 here, though. Seems to just be a relatively large yose.

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 pm
by EdLee
hailthorn, OtakuViking: the move numbers are probably off -- :w21: should be :w22:, etc.

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:37 pm
by OtakuViking
Now that you mention it...:)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:58 pm
by EdLee
Ortho,
One reason is :w22: becomes sente (otherwise :b21: has no meaning),
and the :w22:- :b23: exchange is clearly good for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If B simply took directly ( :b23: instead of :b21:), and W still played :w22:, it would not be sente.

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:14 pm
by EdLee
Ortho,
So the correct move for W here is not the :w20: atari (a) in the game, but descend:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O X a . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If B blocks on the outside with :b2:, we get the same bad result for B as in the game --
W gets :w3: and :w5: in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . 4 1 2 3 . .
$$ | . X O X 5 . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
And if B blocks from the inside, B loses points...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . .
$$ | . X O X . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...so both blocks are not good for B, which means B did something wrong earlier. Continued in the next post. :)

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:29 pm
by EdLee
Ortho,
Continued from previous post:
OtakuViking wrote:Wrong direction to atari for black I think.
OtakuViking was correct about :b19: -- see previous post why B could not get a good result after :b19:.
Correct atari here is from the 2nd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W replies (connects)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...then B gets a better result in the above than the other atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . .
$$ | . X O 1 . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:48 pm
by EdLee
Ortho,
Follow-up about the bad :b21: descend and the good capture :b1::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W still descends to :w2:, B will not reply at (a) (which is the resulting shape in the game) --
B will ignore :w2:, as it is gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X a 2 . .
$$ | . X . X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W ataris with :w2: instead, it is still gote, and B will also ignore it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 . . .
$$ | . X . X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
And if W ignores :b1:, then later B has the nice follow-up of :b3::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
On your question about B's monkey jump, B has no chance to play it, because of :w22:, as we saw in the game.
If any of this is still not clear, please say so. :)

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:50 pm
by Shaddy
ed:
If white extends the atari'd stone, Black will not extend, Black will play diagonal, which leaves a cutting point in the white wall.

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:36 pm
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:43 pm
by Uberdude
A minor point: in fact this bad result for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . 6 . a . .
$$ | . 4 1 2 3 . .
$$ | . X O X 5 . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
is better for black than:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Due to the ko yose at a.

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:44 am
by Ortho
@Ed, et al.
Thanks very much for all of that. If I'm understanding the last example correctly, Black is able to at the cost of a dame point (since the point he's giving up isn't going to become territory, he's going to have to fill it in, prevent white from having at least one sente move, even two if he persists, which is clearly worth more than the "not even one point" value of the move.

I see what you are saying, and it was very helpful because taking account of current and future sente is the current thing I'm trying to learn. :clap:

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:07 am
by perceval
Classic question : how do you handle stones near a wall ?
here the distance (please correct if i am wrong) of K16 to the W wall seems ok to me, so does that mean that the stone should be left alone ?
that would hinder the whole W wall purpose ?.
to try to use it, is the corner approach O17 a good idea ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . 6 . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Usually i dislike playing this approach with an enemy stone at K16 as the O17 group is not comfortable but here maybe K16 is more uncomfortable ? a running battle will follow, will the Wall be useful or made irrelevant ?? i cant decide
example of running battle:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Captures: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . B . 6 . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . 7 . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i really cant say if i prefer B or W, any insights ?
is O17 a good move locally (B is not forced to play the kick after all but in that case maybe it puts useful pressure on K16 ) ?or O18 ? or something else ?
(for the whole board there might be bigger area like R10,O3 even if O17 is good locally)

Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:32 am
by Uberdude
Perceval, my immediate feeling is k16 is a bad overplay and too close to the wall. O17 or n17 would be better. When White invades as in your diagrams k16 seems weaker than white's group due to the wall. White has a significant lead already.
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