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151. Shadonra vs. illluck

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5290

Page 3 of 13

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:26 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kind of wanted to play R5, but that's my greed talking.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:44 pm
by jts
I'd just like to chime in and say that I disagree with redundant. If the game is going along at a good clip, I prefer not to scroll through diagram after diagram. Should I make a poll? (Not that it would be a binding referendum... :D )

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:25 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As expected, black decides to come inside instead. Again I am having a bit of trouble making my sansan stone work (even now moves like the 3-4 attachment is a bit annoying). I am not sure what black will do. I think jumping out is sort of natural, but then I can shoulder-hit the top right shimari nicely. So I suspect black will play something like R12 instead, and I then plan to playing something on top.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:35 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:28 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As discussed previously, I will play this shoulder-hit. It does strengthen black's top side, but I still like it since my hoshi stone is in need of support.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:51 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:57 am
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure whether I should extend or hane here. I would like to get settled locally so that the top is open afterwards, so I'll try to keep a base. I'm not concerned about a cut because I can just extend and let Q14 go.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:34 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:44 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered playing the P13 atari before this extension, but thought it helped black solidify the top too much. Without the exchange black can play at P13 himself, but I think I can just run out and my stone still has aji.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:51 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looks like white didn't get much stronger, huh? What a shame. :D

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:56 pm
by hyperpape
I feel like the shoulder hit was a waste and black has a decent advantage now.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:58 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again as expected. Seems like we have similar judgements :)

Right now I am not really concerned about reading exact variations. It just feels like jumping out is important, and I don't see any immediate local refutations to this (though later there's some annoying cut aji). Running out puts some pressure on his two stones below. I feel like ignore his response (if he strengthens those two stones) to play something around top.

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:01 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder what you want. Is it sente to reduce, or do you want to attack me?

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:09 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . X . O . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm torn between responding and not responding. I ended up deciding to respond because if I were to hane and black extends, then I leave a better local result before I tenuki. So therefore if I am sure that black will respond to the hane then responding is strictly better than not responding (alpha-beta pruning? :p).

Then it's a question of whether I want to hane or extend. Normally extend is better, but since I want to tenuki after I don't want to leave more options for black (O3 aji annoying). So I will hane.

Black will either extend or tenuki. It feels to me that allowing me to atari at Q7 is too much, so I expect the extension.


Edit: Opps, presumably I should actually post my response XD

Re: 151. Shadonra vs. illluck

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:12 pm
by Chew Terr
Hey, you did mean to play a stone, right (Guessing from your comment) ?
All times are UTC-07:00
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