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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:04 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:54 am
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:09 am
by Marcus
Hidden for brevity, but players are allowed to read this.
This is exactly the first sequence I learned for this opening. Interesting. I had thought that it had fallen out of favour for both Black and White, really, but I guess at our level it doesn't matter.

Another sequence I've seen in the past that I was told is a bit newer starts off like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I haven't personally played with this varition, but it looks fun and interesting!

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:38 am
by Uberdude
r11 is not necessarily a good exchange (though pros do sometimes play it), it loses black some more severe attacking options at r10 or s9 which become feasable if white exchanges o17 for r14.


About Marcus's 'newer' sequence, I'd have thought that was an older joseki, and on this board it is good for white as k4 ends up overconcentrated, as in my OGS game with Magicwand (http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=305481) (and there q8 was r8 which is even worse for black). It would be playable with j4, and a matter of style who one thinks is better.

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:49 pm
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Forced move again, I hope I'll get to play soon. I don't see any other option as I need to make life for my group. Now it's alive and safe. Black has some weaknesses and possible reductions that I'll need to exploit later.

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 pm
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've got some weaknesses in my fuseki to look out for, but I'm not worried about it. :b23: is a good move IMO.

I can see these marked moves as potential targets for White, so I wonder if it's miai. I'll definitely have to look over potential sequences after this move and perhaps seal up one of these weaknesses if he doesn't.

Is that a good option? Is it a bad option? I will decide based on my limited reading ability and :white:'s next move. However, I really liked the fuseki sequence here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:49 pm
by Uberdude
f5 is better. White h3 should be good now.

Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:53 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 4 . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was thinking about D2 - F5 exchange, but it would be too good for black and I want to make a complicated fight to play as I want to from now on. I want to take initiative and crush him :-) Good thing about this is that I have absolutely no idea how I would respond as black. I hope hailthorn doesn't know either. He has to consider my invasion into N4 area as possibility if he makes :w24: stone strong.