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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:36 pm
by EdLee
illluck wrote:Pros routinely call certain moves "overplays", what do they try to do against those moves?
They continue to play their best, most severe moves. :)

It's my personal preference, and I could well be in the minority here, thus my emphasis of "IMO".
But I still prefer to not think in terms of "punish" or "punishment" against overplays, unreasonable moves, soft moves, slow moves, etc.,
but just continue to play the best, most severe reply, counter-attack, etc. That's all. :)

Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners)

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:38 pm
by illluck
A rose, by any other name... :p

In any case, I don't think that's a wrong way to think of things, but hard to claim that looking for punishments for apparent non-optimal moves is "on the wrong track".

Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners)

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:46 pm
by jts
cyclops wrote:
jts wrote:Tedomari s.b. tewari, right?

"s.b." s.b. "should be", rt?

s.b. s.b s.b., indeed.

Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners)

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:32 pm
by tchan001
Looks like even Shusaku plays the second line hane. Watch move 51 bottom right corner


Re:

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:07 am
by daal
EdLee wrote:It's my personal preference, and I could well be in the minority here, thus my emphasis of "IMO".
But I still prefer to not think in terms of "punish" or "punishment" against overplays, unreasonable moves, soft moves, slow moves, etc.,
but just continue to play the best, most severe reply, counter-attack, etc. That's all. :)

illluck wrote:A rose, by any other name... :p

In any case, I don't think that's a wrong way to think of things, but hard to claim that looking for punishments for apparent non-optimal moves is "on the wrong track".


For most of us, it's probably much more important to learn to read out countermeasures to an overplay than it is to quibble about what to call it, but I suspect that EdLee is right in cautioning us against using the word "punish."

There is a subtle but significant difference in attitude between "I will punish my opponent's mistake" and " I will play the best move in this situation." Of course a pro wants to figure out how best to exploit any weakness in an opponent's position, but that is surely secondary to finding the moves that will best lead to a win. By focusing on punishment, we are limiting our scope.

I don't think though that it's just a matter of local vs global; it's also about how we direct our minds and thoughts. Using the word "punish" places our focus on rectifying a transgression against us. It awakens our sense of righteousness (and also a fear of being swindled). By adding a moral element, we are giving the situation more weight than it would otherwise have, and it becomes more difficult to view the situation objectively.

One might say that this is also true of "jealous" and "greedy," which are easily understood concepts that are helpful in pointing out moments in which an amateur's play turned sour. Usually such play is bad, and usually punishing overplays is good, but all of these terms insert emotional involvement into the equation, where a pro would more often tend to make a dispassionate assessment.

It might also be worth noting that in contrast, the words "severe" or "painful" for example do not have a moral element, and are frequently used by pros.

Then again, we aren't pros (yet), and approaching the game on an emotional level can offer us worthwhile shortcuts, but like any shortcuts, if they become habits, they will hinder us in the long run.

Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners)

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:04 am
by entropi
I understand the feeling of EdLee that he doesn't like the perception of the concept of "punishment" applied to Go. I can relate to that feeling.

However, words have their meanings in their own context. In Go punishing doesn't necessarily mean to make the opponent regret of making such an overplay.
In most cases a calm and normal move, sometimes even a tenuki, in other words the best counter-play, is enough "punishment". Whether you call it "punishment" or not, is just a matter of terminology.

Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners)

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:44 pm
by emeraldemon
There was some good discussion here, it would be great if some of that information were consolidated on Sensei's Library. Right now there's this:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... ption#toc4

But that doesn't give as thorough a discussion as we have here. Maybe even move the content to its own page?

Re:

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:50 pm
by tchan001
EdLee wrote:IMO if you think "punish" the hane, you're already on the wrong track.

EdLee wrote:tchan, I'm currently in 3 Malkovich games and strictly speaking cannot peruse Ishida or Takao,
but I'm very curious if either of them used the word "punish" or "punishment" in their dictionaries.
I seem to remember wordings like "foil", "counter attack", "avoid the trap",
and of course the usual "favorable", "unfavorable", "satisfied", "dissatisfied", etc.
I suppose I can search for "punish" in kogo as a text file without actually reading it. :)

From another thread
viewtopic.php?p=145405#p145405

EdLee wrote:
judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.
I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.

Takao spent about half a page on the hane. Excerpts:
Playing a hane at 1 instead of extending... diverges from joseki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 1 O O 2 .|
$$ , . . . . . X X . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
One way of punishing Black for his mistake is to descend at 2.

I believe the exact page for the Takao quote is from Volume Two of his Joseki Dictionary page 71.
I would say that if it's ok for Takao to call the situation "punishing Black for his [hane] mistake", that having a top pro use such wordings would not put me on the wrong track. I tend to place more weight on the words of a top pro rather than the words of an unnamed pro :)

And if you think perhaps the translation is off, please be reminded of JF's review of the first volume where he says:
John Fairbairn wrote:You will also be getting an authoritative text, not just in the guise of Takao or even the expert editing team, but in the sense of a totally accurate translation in mellifluous prose with proper British/Australian spelling (although I blinked at "Black ataries at 1"). Don't underestimate this - you'd be shocked at how different the Japanese and English are in some go books. The reason for the quality is, of course, that the hand at the tiller belongs to John Power. You should also credit him for the superb layout.