Life In 19x19

What you are referring to is not joseki but the research of professionals into new variations. The research of new variations implies that when it is used the opponent will not have access to the information beforehand so why would there be a need to obscure such plays?

A historical look at how this happens can be found by looking at the Blood Vomiting Game where a secret variation of the taisha joseki developed by the Inoue house was unleashed on Jowa.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BloodVomitingGame

tchan001 wrote:What you are referring to is not joseki but the research of professionals into new variations. The research of new variations implies that when it is used the opponent will not have access to the information beforehand so why would there be a need to obscure such plays?

A historical look at how this happens can be found by looking at the Blood Vomiting Game where a secret variation of the taisha joseki developed by the Inoue house was unleashed on Jowa.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BloodVomitingGame

Hmm interesting. I think the idea is that in a modern setting original research becomes assimilated very quickly so developing such research will be less productive.

I suppose another technique to prevent amateurs and lower ranked dans from discovering the variations, is for the variations to depend on life and death that they aren't able to solve, IE the variation to be easy to refute unless the antidote to a life and death problem is known.

I think the idea of pros trying to hide secret variations from amateurs is just ridiculous. Why would they do that?

Anyway, if you study variations for yourself, unless you actually use them in your game, you can't profit from it. And afterwards everyone can see your game and study it, so there's just no point. On the board there is no hiding. At most I guess it can be used to get a bit of an edge for a game or two. But pros can read very deep and adapt quickly to new situations, especially the top players, so the advantage you can get is probably not very big.

Also pros often study in groups and discuss variations extensively. That alone makes the idea of secrecy rather pointless.

golem7 wrote:I think the idea of pros trying to hide secret variations from amateurs is just ridiculous. Why would they do that?

I didn't say amateurs, I said lower ranked dan's.

golem7 wrote:Anyway, if you study variations for yourself, unless you actually use them in your game, you can't profit from it. And afterwards everyone can see your game and study it, so there's just no point. On the board there is no hiding. At most I guess it can be used to get a bit of an edge for a game or two. But pros can read very deep and adapt quickly to new situations, especially the top players, so the advantage you can get is probably not very big.

It is like public key encryption, anyone that can factor large primes can hack any computer all the information is there.

golem7 wrote:
Also pros often study in groups and discuss variations extensively. That alone makes the idea of secrecy rather pointless.

Again maintaining personal edge or the edge of the study group is exactly the point.

Once it is in a public game, other groups of pros will study it and come to understand it. If one pro (or one study group) has accumulated a truly great deal of knowledge (i.e. many variations in a specific opening), it might not all be discovered immediately. But the parts that are played will be analyzed, and discovered quickly. There's no way to hide it.

Really, the only recourse is to discover new things quickly so you can stay ahead of the competition.

P.S. Low ranked professionals often study with stronger pros. You might consider them akin to the lab techs or grad students who work for a top professor, if you know anything about that environment.

hyperpape wrote:You might consider them akin to the lab techs or grad students who work for a top professor, if you know anything about that environment.

That is sort of how I imagined it. The top dan says I need you to solve this problem so that if my competitor uses this play I will be prepared. However, I think in grad school their is also a fair amount of blind work. IE lets see if lab monkey with limited skills can perform this experiment.

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:I think the idea of pros trying to hide secret variations from amateurs is just ridiculous. Why would they do that?

I didn't say amateurs, I said lower ranked dan's.

Um, your post says quite clearly "amateurs and lower ranked dans".

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:Anyway, if you study variations for yourself, unless you actually use them in your game, you can't profit from it. And afterwards everyone can see your game and study it, so there's just no point. On the board there is no hiding. At most I guess it can be used to get a bit of an edge for a game or two. But pros can read very deep and adapt quickly to new situations, especially the top players, so the advantage you can get is probably not very big.

It is like public key encryption, anyone that can factor large primes can hack any computer all the information is there.

But you don't need a major mathematical breakthrough to study someone's games.

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:Also pros often study in groups and discuss variations extensively. That alone makes the idea of secrecy rather pointless.

Again maintaining personal edge or the edge of the study group is exactly the point.

You have to keep in mind that study group members are also at the same time competing pros that could be opponents in the next game. I also think it's hard to discover superior variations by yourself, a study group will always have a better result, as long as they work together.

Of course I agree that pros study to stay at the top of research and improve their game (as they should), I just don't believe there is much secrecy going on, if any at all. I also fully support hyperpage's last post.

golem7 wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:I think the idea of pros trying to hide secret variations from amateurs is just ridiculous. Why would they do that?

I didn't say amateurs, I said lower ranked dan's.

Um, your post says quite clearly "amateurs and lower ranked dans".

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:Anyway, if you study variations for yourself, unless you actually use them in your game, you can't profit from it. And afterwards everyone can see your game and study it, so there's just no point. On the board there is no hiding. At most I guess it can be used to get a bit of an edge for a game or two. But pros can read very deep and adapt quickly to new situations, especially the top players, so the advantage you can get is probably not very big.

It is like public key encryption, anyone that can factor large primes can hack any computer all the information is there.

But you don't need a major mathematical breakthrough to study someone's games.

SmoothOper wrote:

golem7 wrote:Also pros often study in groups and discuss variations extensively. That alone makes the idea of secrecy rather pointless.

Again maintaining personal edge or the edge of the study group is exactly the point.

You have to keep in mind that study group members are also at the same time competing pros that could be opponents in the next game. I also think it's hard to discover superior variations by yourself, a study group will always have a better result, as long as they work together.

Of course I agree that pros study to stay at the top of research and improve their game (as they should), I just don't believe there is much secrecy going on, if any at all. I also fully support hyperpage's last post.

I'm not very familiar with top levels of go, but in many other individual competitions, groups of people will still collaborate in secret to gain an edge.

For example, in Magic: The Gathering teams of players will often show up to major events with nearly identical decklists after having prepared for an event. Also in StarCraft teams of players will practice with each other and will play particular matchups very similarly as a result.

I don't see why a group of 4-5 pros wouldn't keep hidden a new fuseki move in some popular fuseki only to use it in an upcoming tournament. Even if they only gain an edge for a game or two, that can make a difference at that level.

nothing is hidden. how can it be? the board is open, and anyone can see it.

there may be some unexplored variations, but even these aren't hidden. given enough time, anyone can read through the variations to find the best responses.

Time wrote:I don't see why a group of 4-5 pros wouldn't keep hidden a new fuseki move in some popular fuseki only to use it in an upcoming tournament. Even if they only gain an edge for a game or two, that can make a difference at that level.

That's what we all agree on. Smoothoper is asking if there's some way they can use their results and still keep it hidden.

As per the latest New in Go article brought to us by GOGOD, pros do have blind spots to variations that become so obvious once they have been shown. I think it's a very relevant article for this thread.
http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/NewInGo.htm
86. Historic new move - joseki for birds

So in my opinion, the edge is normally unleashed as a precalculated new variation rather than obscuring something which is already known. It is true that the board is open and that professionals read deeply, but no one has the time to truely study every joseki ever discovered in great depth to the extent of discovering new weaknesses which might render certain joseki obsolete. As we all know joseki are not engraved in stone but may change over time as new ideas are discovered.

As to the question of how pros might use the fruits of their studies and still keep it hidden, I would think they could play private games on the internet with other high rankers to battle test their new ideas before unleashing them in tournament play where it counts towards their pocketbooks.

This isn't about surprising the opponent with newly researched moves in the opening (which does happen), but Ma Xiaochun's 36 Stratagems Applied to Go might be the kind of thing you're thinking about. Here's a quick review/explanation.

Ma has a reputation for tricking other pros. The first example game is for the stratagem of 'Crossing the Sea by Treachery'. Ma analyzes a corner position, showing why white thinks it's alive and why, actually, there's a way to make ko that white's overlooked. He also points out that if black can play a particular move on the outside in sente, the ko will be erased and black will be able to kill cleanly (without ko). The group is big enough to decide the game.

Rather than start the ko or play that forcing move right away, which would "draw white's attention to the problem", Ma shows how black can setup a double attack which will allow black to play the crucial corner threatening move in sente, as part of the normal flow of fighting.

By concealing the double threat within the flow of fighting, black's able to kill the corner and win the game. But at the point when black unleashes the double threat, even if white's now realized what's going on (which he probably has), it's too late to do anything about it. At that point, black threatens to kill one group or the other. A 41 move sequence is given for the main diagram of how black played. Black plays the double threat on move 21 of the sequence and (after the fighting on the edge settles down) the killing move on move 33.

It's a really good book (one of the more underrated ones in English), but the level is very high and it's usually better to play the variations out on the board to follow them. It's such a pity that the publisher is basically impossible to work with, otherwise we'd stock this book at Go Game Guru.

I bought the book as a kyu player and enjoyed it a lot, but I didn't really study it carefully until years later. Whenever I have time to study it, it's very hard going, but I also start winning a lot more games against strong opponents.

Some players I know don't like this book because they think Ma's ideas are just tricks and they're more interested in the 'Zen' approach to Go. The original 36 Stratagems was a military text (like the Art of War) and focusses only on the yin (i.e. the dark side) of the yin yang. In my opinion, the examples shown in the book are just high level examples of creating miai. They teach you new and interesting strategies and techniques (that could go by other names, but the purpose of the book is to use the 36 Stratagems).

For me this book really emphasized the connection between life and death, tactics and whole board strategy, and showed how deep Go strategy can be. It's one of the main reasons why I always tell people that becoming strong at life and death is essential for coming up with genuinely good strategies during a game.

I didn't want to reproduce the commentary from the book when I wrote this the other day and I couldn't find an accurate copy of the game record. But since it's such an awesome example of strategy, it was still on my mind and I went and found one (this game is also in GoGoD, but the move order was all messed up in critical places, and the flow didn't make sense. )

Here's the game. There's also some light commentary in the diagrams below.



The moment of interest is when white plays . Black embarks on a long road with , all the while secretly eyeing the lower right corner. Black is the key move and is the coup de grâce.

After that, black just has to prove that his group's alive .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W After white , black comes up with a far sighted plan to kill the lower right corner.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Attacking the lower right corner directly would lead to ko.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O 3 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O 4 |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X 8 9 0 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 1 . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B (continuing) this ko is heavy and white has a lot of ko threats, so black doesn't feel this is promising way to play.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O X |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O a X O . O O |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X 2 X W O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c b X O O 1 O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black's plan starts very indirectly with and so on. Black's real aim is to turn 'a' into a double threat.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . 7 . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 3 . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 8 . 2 . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . 1 . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O 9 . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Success!
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . X . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . O . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X O . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . O . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X O O . O O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

gogameguru wrote:

$$W After white , black comes up with a far sighted plan to kill the lower right corner.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W After white , black comes up with a far sighted plan to kill the lower right corner.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

My question is would the bottom right corner sequence make sense for an amateur to play or study, if they couldn't read out the life and death sequences and variations? An alternate explanation for white's ignoring the ko in the corner would be that living in gote would be too expensive, and a ko threat would sufficiently damaging to black in compensation.

The Ma book is on my wish list along with Korean style fuseki dictionary and Cho U's tsumego.

SmoothOper wrote:My question is would the bottom right corner sequence make sense for an amateur to play or study, if they couldn't read out the life and death sequences and variations? An alternate explanation for white's ignoring the ko in the corner would be that living in gote would be too expensive, and a ko threat would sufficiently damaging to black in compensation. The Ma book is on my wish list along with Korean style fuseki dictionary and Cho U's tsumego.

Ma's book is quite hard going, but if you have the patience and the interest, I think it's worth it.

Rather than the sequence itself, it's the greater strategy that you want to take note of. If you can't read out the sequence in the corner, then you'd have less information than Ma in this specific position, so you wouldn't be able to use this strategy here. In your own games though, similar situations will arise where you can read them out. That's where this example may come to mind and you could consider this sort of approach as one possible strategy you might choose in the middle game.

Rather than a just add water trick play, this is a more generally applicable plan that requires you to have a certain amount of understanding of what's going on on the board.

There's plenty to glean from this book in terms of local tactics and technique, but the main focus is on strategy. As I said earlier, this example shows clearly the value of becoming strong at reading and life and death. When you understand more about what's going on (in precise detail) you have more options to choose from.

Strategy and tactics are two sides of the same coin. They can't really be separated. But strategy is king.