Life In 19x19

I would say it's poor sportsmanship rather than unethical. It's a trick that doesn't rely on skill to win. Anyone can use the clock in this manner - 30kyu to 9dan. Perhaps you (the generic 'you') should have slowed down a bit and thought more carefully about where you placed your stones like your opponent who outplayed you.

deja wrote:I would say it's poor sportsmanship rather than unethical. It's a trick that doesn't rely on skill to win. Anyone can use the clock in this manner - 30kyu to 9dan. Perhaps you (the generic 'you') should have slowed down a bit and thought more carefully about where you placed your stones like your opponent who outplayed you.

When you start a game, though, you are agreeing to the setup of that game -- including the time constraints. At that point it is then up to you to balance how much time you are taking, as well as the actual moves you are making.

So in the end, did your opponent outplay you and get a superior position? Or did you outplay him by better managing your time and getting a superior time position?

Sorry OP, this is not a question of ethics.

Maybe you could ask if it is nice or not-nice, sportsmanlike or unsportsmanlike.

To modify the question a bit, how about if there is no bad aji on the board? The game is done; even the dame have been filled, and you are behind on the board. However, it's an absolute-timed game and your opponent has only a few seconds left. You continue, playing clearly ridiculous invasions as well as now and again an atari to force your opponent to actually look at your plays and not just press "pass" automatically.

I've lost like this in an online game and I'll freely admit I was a bit miffed. The possibility of play like this seems to be a natural consequence of absolute timing, though, so now I just avoid that (except for over-the-board where absolute timing is sometimes convenient and I just wouldn't expect people to do this).

To throw my two cents in;

Yeah, as people say, if you are playing a game with a time setting, managing that time setting is part of the game. You know that spending time reading one situation means you've traded in time reading another.

As a matter of fact I just won a game exactly like this. I was about 10 points behind, but he had a tonne of very bad aji and I started a tricky reduction. He had one 30 second time period and I had a couple of minutes. +time around 5 moves in.


And I don't like people disparaging go with non-unlimited time. I have lost games because my opponent was able to spend so many hours thinking on his turns I was well bored a third of the way through and unable to focus. Now I won't play like that.

Loons wrote:And I don't like people disparaging go with non-unlimited time. I have lost games because my opponent was able to spend so many hours thinking on his turns I was well bored a third of the way through and unable to focus. Now I won't play like that.

Well, it's not really your opponent's fault if you miss stamina, is it?
For me, seeing japanese top titles played over two days is the real Go. There it all comes down to skill, mental strength and of course stamina. That's the spirit, I like about Go.

Internet Go and amateur tournament Go (under one hour thinking time, although even one hour is too fast for a good Dan-level game, I suppose), well, they are the lesser evil to be ever able to play. So it's fine, but that's nothing compared to facing a friend in a match without time-limits : )

Loons wrote:To throw my two cents in;

Yeah, as people say, if you are playing a game with a time setting, managing that time setting is part of the game. You know that spending time reading one situation means you've traded in time reading another.

As a matter of fact I just won a game exactly like this. I was about 10 points behind, but he had a tonne of very bad aji and I started a tricky reduction. He had one 30 second time period and I had a couple of minutes. +time around 5 moves in.


And I don't like people disparaging go with non-unlimited time. I have lost games because my opponent was able to spend so many hours thinking on his turns I was well bored a third of the way through and unable to focus. Now I won't play like that.

Exactly. If someone spends so much time early in the game that he is unable to finish it because his clock runs out he should have spent his time more wisely to begin with. It's not about finding the best move in every situation. It's about doing the best you can given the time constraints. Time is a finite resource.

We could change the rules of the game though to see who is ahead after the first player's time runs out. But would you want to leave that decision to e.g. kgs' score estimator?

SoDesuNe wrote:Well, it's not really your opponent's fault if you miss stamina, is it?
For me, seeing japanese top titles played over two days is the real Go. There it all comes down to skill, mental strength and of course stamina. That's the spirit, I like about Go.

Internet Go and amateur tournament Go (under one hour thinking time, although even one hour is too fast for a good Dan-level game, I suppose), well, they are the lesser evil to be ever able to play. So it's fine, but that's nothing compared to facing a friend in a match without time-limits : )

Well, with a one hour tournament game I do always have to play more quickly than when I really play relaxed and take my time for each move. 2 hours + overtime, like in the European Championship, is a more leisurely pace I think. BUT. A competitive game without time limits? That's just madness! I would take over 3 hours for a difficult game, easily... So I don't do that .

Any game without time limits is just a friendly game, where you can experiment a bit, read something out when necessary, play quickly when reading is not necessary, and don't care about who wins.

Hello,

In this example, why is it so important to win the game, if you know in your heart that you haven't played well enough to win it on the board?

I don't see the answer as being either ethical or unethical. I see the answer being based on why it's so important for a person to win the game in this circumstance.

Personally, I'd resign. I enjoy playing the game and don't really care about the result.

Helel wrote:Resigning games which you still can win is unethical, and anyone doing it on KGS should be deranked.
(And preferably permanently banned from the server. )

Go is an art, winning is not the only propose. If played too ugly, like climbing on the second line, rather resign.
anyone who derank others should be permanently banned from the server

deja wrote:I would say it's poor sportsmanship rather than unethical. It's a trick that doesn't rely on skill to win. Anyone can use the clock in this manner - 30kyu to 9dan. Perhaps you (the generic 'you') should have slowed down a bit and thought more carefully about where you placed your stones like your opponent who outplayed you.

No, it's not, it's just a strategy.

In a blitz tournament, my opponent was 9 stones stronger than I was, and when he needed more time to think in one situation. He cleverly put a stone somewhere else, that needs more reading for a player on my level (say, put a stone on 3.3 in my almost enclosed corner). If i didn't respond correctly, it would cause trouble there. In this way he had more time in reading the situation that he actually need. Note, he was not under time pressure, when he did this.

Would you consider it being a poor sportsmanship? Of course, no. I consider it to be a very smart strategy, it gains him extra time. So why do you consider the similar action under time pressure is poor sportsmanship?

Helel wrote: Playing on hoping he will die from natural causes is perfectly fine.

Also known as the "Rubin427 clockless tesuji".

In the get strong series, they should consider adding - Get Strong at Time Management.

Seriously, the strategy of playing nonsense moves that force your opponent to respond so you win on time demonstrates what? The question isn't whether it's allowed according to rules and thus within the bounds of the game. Of course it's allowed. Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't make it ethical. To win like that is perfectly legitimate but it's a hollow win.

I'm looking at this in terms of a regularly timed game. Blitz games are all about skill under time pressure, which is different. Yes, I know the OP couched the scenario in terms of a fast game.

Yesterday there was a 5d blitz game on KGS where one player chose to play every single possible point on the go board at the end of the game with what I assumed was the intention to bore the opponent into resigning, escaping, or lagging out.

I agree with many here that you can take advantage of the clock, but I don't think it's black/white what is ethical.

kokomi wrote:

Helel wrote:Resigning games which you still can win is unethical, and anyone doing it on KGS should be deranked.
(And preferably permanently banned from the server. )

Go is an art, winning is not the only propose. If played too ugly, like climbing on the second line, rather resign.
anyone who derank others should be permanently banned from the server

Zombie topic resurrection!
Kokomi: grammar police should really book you. You can speak English properly, so speak it properly. Edit: You could speak English better than that... Your other post was still grammatically unsafe, but it is much better. 2nd Edit: I thought I lost my 1st edit

I'm starting to like where Helel is going. The meanness that he exhibits actually has a point to it.

Go is not an art, it is a battle of the mind. I'm guessing you haven't seen Hikaru no Go where people lose more than just the game, they lose their soul. Oh whoops, wrong show, but you can teach the person a lesson that they can't just have all the time that they want.

If they can't handle time restraints and they are boring you, then you have all the right to use your time to destroy them. If you are just wasting your own time and not learning anything, then you're stupid, pathetic, and boring

Either finish them quick, or don't bother playing with so much time. If you know you lost, then just resign, and suck it up.

(if you have a girlfriend) You can lose a game to your girlfriend and then propose. That's recommended. I like how you think.

Let's just put the boring person who loses on time on the ignore list, and you never have to worry about them again. Permaban is silly.