#215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weeds

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drishti
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . 1 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 3 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 2 X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The Intrepid
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After this move, I'll start playing moves in other areas. The hope is to lull Black into sleep. I want to accomplish the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . W O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X W O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O W . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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drishti
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by drishti »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :b6:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The Intrepid
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: :b6: , :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X X O O X O O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . X O X O . X . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . O . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . 2 X O X O O X X O O O O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black's move loses a point but removes all the aji, so is better, given Black's lead.

OK, my last chance is to try to live on the right side. Before making the attempt, I'll play the big 6.5 move on the left. :)
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Bill Spight »

White missed his opportunity to resign.

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

Let's make a quick calculation of how much the move is worth.

1). A simplified calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | 4 2 X . X
$$ | 5 1 X O X
$$ | 3 M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score W = (+5) + (-2) = (+3)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | C C X . X
$$ | 3 C X O X
$$ | 5 1 O X X
$$ | 4 2 O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score B = (+2) + (-5) = (-3) (We could have gotten this result by seeing that White and Black stones are symmetrically distributed.)

Thus, the move is worth approximately Score Difference = Score W - Score B = (+3) - (-3) = (+6)

2). A more rigorous calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . 2 X . X
$$ | . 1 X O X
$$ | 3 . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
This ends in gote for Black. Thus, both players have 50% to play in the area first.

If White plays first, the result is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | 2 C X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 3 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WW = +4

If Black plays first, the play is again gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.

If White plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBW = +3

If Black plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBB = +2

Therefore, Score W = 50% * Score WW + 50% * [50% * Score WBW + 50% * Score Score WBB] = (+2) + 0.5 * [(+1.5) + (+1)] = +3.25

By symmetry, Score B = (-1) * Score W = -3.25

Therefore, Score Difference = Score W - Score B = +6.5
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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skydyr
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by skydyr »

@Bill Spight
Bill Spight wrote:White missed his opportunity to resign.

Could you clarify this? What were you looking at as the opportunity to resign?
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Bill Spight »

The Intrepid wrote:Let's make a quick calculation of how much the move is worth.

1). A simplified calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | 4 2 X . X
$$ | 5 1 X O X
$$ | 3 M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score W = (+5) + (-2) = (+3)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | C C X . X
$$ | 3 C X O X
$$ | 5 1 O X X
$$ | 4 2 O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score B = (+2) + (-5) = (-3) (We could have gotten this result by seeing that White and Black stones are symmetrically distributed.)

Thus, the move is worth approximately Score Difference = Score W - Score B = (+3) - (-3) = (+6)

2). A more rigorous calculation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . 2 X . X
$$ | . 1 X O X
$$ | 3 . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
This ends in gote for Black. Thus, both players have 50% to play in the area first.

If White plays first, the result is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | 2 C X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 3 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WW = +4

If Black plays first, the play is again gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.

If White plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O M O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBW = +3

If Black plays first,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | C C X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | M M O X O
$$ | M M O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Score WBB = +2

Therefore, Score W = 50% * Score WW + 50% * [50% * Score WBW + 50% * Score Score WBB] = (+2) + 0.5 * [(+1.5) + (+1)] = +3.25

By symmetry, Score B = (-1) * Score W = -3.25

Therefore, Score Difference = Score W - Score B = +6.5[/hide]


You were right the first time. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | . O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Thus, each player again has 50% chance to be the first one to play the followup.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | X X X . X
$$ | 1 O X O X
$$ | O 2 O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


In this position :b1: is sente. We therefore do not say that each player has a 50% chance of playing here first. We regard :b1: as Black's privilege.

This position is a bit tricky, however, because :b1: in the next diagram is ambiguous between gote and sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | 1 X X . X
$$ | 2 O X O X
$$ | O . O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


That is, it is not sente, but :w2: gains as much as :b1:. Therefore White can play :w2:, despite Black's privilege. (The point being that if White plays :w2:, Black does not get the chance to raise the local temperature by playing there himself.) Anyway, the exchange, :b1: - :w2: does not change the local count. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Bill Spight »

skydyr wrote:@Bill Spight
Bill Spight wrote:White missed his opportunity to resign.

Could you clarify this? What were you looking at as the opportunity to resign?


There is a phrase, "looking for a place to resign", which is used when the player who is behind takes desperate measures which, assuming correct play by the opponent, are doomed to fail. White has made a sequence of four plays ( :w1: - :w7:) which could be called looking for a place to resign. Then when Black administered the coup de grace ( :b8:), White did not resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . O . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O O X O O . . O X O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . O X X O X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O O O X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . X X O O X . . X . |
$$ | . . X O X X O O O X . . O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O X X X O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O X X O O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O 5 4 O O . 2 1 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O . 6 . 8 . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . 7 . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O O O . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X X O O 3 O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X X . X X X O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X X . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X O O O O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X O . . . O O O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose that The Intrepid is playing on for the sake of the audience, but drishti deserve a round of applause. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu May 02, 2013 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

You were right the first time. :)
Can I look at that hide tag now or only later?
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by skydyr »

Bill Spight wrote:There is a phrase, "looking for a place to resign", which is used when the player who is behind takes desperate measures which, assuming correct play by the opponent, are doomed to fail. White has made a sequence of three plays which could be called looking for a place to resign. Then when Black administered the coup de grace, White did not resign.

I suppose that The Intrepid is playing on for the sake of the audience, but drishti deserve a round of applause. :)


I'm familiar with the phrase. I misunderstood you as saying there was some sequence he should have tried but that his last move ruined. I get the impression he's holding out to try the right side.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by Bill Spight »

The Intrepid wrote:
You were right the first time. :)
Can I look at that hide tag now or only later?


Oh, now. Sorry. I just hid it because you did. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

@Bill Spight
I'm not entirely convinced, yet, that the point should not be counted. :) I need to think about this a bit.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by mitsun »

Simplified calculation:

Fair exchange, what Bill would call the value of this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc base position
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X . X
$$ | X X X O X
$$ | O O O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


Average result if W invests an extra move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc W gains 3 points
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | X 2 X . X
$$ | O 1 X O X
$$ | . 3 O X X
$$ | . . O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]


Average result if B invests an extra move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B gains 3 points
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X . X
$$ | . 3 X O X
$$ | X 1 O X X
$$ | O 2 O X O
$$ | . . O O .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ ------------[/go]
Last edited by mitsun on Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #215: The Intrepid vs. drishti: Deep in the Endgame Weed

Post by The Intrepid »

@mitsun, please hide your comment. My opponent is still playing.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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