Life In 19x19

Interesting argument, jts, and I can see the distinction you are making between a discrete threshold and "vague cases".

However, could we also see this as a situation in which there is some threshold on the number of users for which the server starts to become fun enough to play on a regular basis (eg. worth spending one hour of your time on every day)? Or perhaps, more fun to play on than all of the other servers for a set time period?

While it's true that we don't necessarily have a well-defined number of users for which this threshold can be met, and the threshold might vary from person to person, I feel that such a threshold may potentially exist for a go server. In the case of elections, and lifting cars off of kids - well, the number of people required to be "a success" is easily calculable. But in this situation, while the calculation may be difficult, certainly such a threshold exist, does it not?

Also, I don't think that any sort of "obligation" exists for playing on nova.gs, nor do I believe that an obligation exists for me to vote in an election. But I do believe that my contribution toward either will contribute to the collective result.

jts wrote:A go server with N+k players is monotonically more fun than a server with N players, but it's impossible to say how much more fun it is. A neighborhood with N+k good citizens is safer than the same neighborhood with N good citizens, but it's impossible to say how much more fun it is. Is it your duty to play on a bad go server to make it more fun? Or to move to an unsafe neighborhood to make it more safe? (Or, to use an example Americans may be familiar with, to send your children to a bad public school?) Under certain circumstances you might be able to make an argument to this effect, but it's difficult to figure out what that obligations would be because it's almost impossible to say what effect one person has.

It's even worse than this because it's not N+k. It's the perception of N+k. People log on and they see how fast chat is going and how many games are up and active and these, rather than the actual number of people logged on, will decide whether the place feels busy or not. So, you could add myself, or perhaps oren, to a server and if we behaved like we do on KGS and mostly chat in private and not play a whole lot we won't make the place look busier, if on the other hand you grabbed someone very active in public chat or they play a hell of a lot of games a day, they'll make the place look busier than it actually is.

Kirby wrote:I don't feel that a user base will ever get started, if there are not those willing to participate without the convenience of an already existing user base. This is why I feel it is important to, as a "drop of water", continue to drop if you wish to break down a dam, even if others are not yet dropping.

It takes some faith and confidence that others will follow suit, but I don't think it will ever happen otherwise - just the same as an election result would never occur if nobody ever voted.

The way to build a base is not to go, sit and wait by your self. Instead, take a few friends who will play regularly with you (and hopefully with each other) then when people stop in and see active games they will be more likely to ask to play. Don't forget to play them when they do ask. As the numbers start to rise you will reach a sustainable mass. The trick is to find the smallest sustainable mass for you and a group of friends as this effort may take many months. No profit is ever made without investment, some are able to invest more than others.

mdobbins wrote:The way to build a base is not to go, sit and wait by your self. Instead, take a few friends who will play regularly with you (and hopefully with each other) then when people stop in and see active games they will be more likely to ask to play. Don't forget to play them when they do ask. As the numbers start to rise you will reach a sustainable mass. The trick is to find the smallest sustainable mass for you and a group of friends as this effort may take many months. No profit is ever made without investment, some are able to invest more than others.

I agree that you should get friends to play regularly with you. This will surely help.

I don't see why it is necessary to have the "smallest sustainable mass", however. The larger the mass, the better it would be, I would feel. While some may drop out over the many months that it might take, you'll have greater chance of having survivors when the original numbers are larger.

Kirby wrote:... However, could we also see this as a situation in which there is some threshold on the number of users for which the server starts to become fun enough to play on a regular basis (eg. worth spending one hour of your time on every day)?

...Also, I don't think that any sort of "obligation" exists for playing on nova.gs, nor do I believe that an obligation exists for me to vote in an election. But I do believe that my contribution toward either will contribute to the collective result.

As to your first point, it's possible that server-quality all comes in a lump past some threshold, but I suspect you are conflating a threshold in your own willingness to use one server over another with a threshold in server quality. Let's say it's not about KGS or Tygem or Nova, but tennis versus KGS. At a certain temperature, maybe it gets too hot and I prefer to watch go in front of my air conditioner; before that point, I would rather play tennis. But my enjoyment of tennis doesn't itself have a threshold. Tennis gets continuously more miserable as the temperature goes up.

Turning the example around, we can hold the temperature constant at a balmy 92 degrees and take away players from KGS until I would rather play tennis again - and we can see once more that there is no threshold in the number of players that affects my enjoyment significantly, but a point at which my enjoyment of one activity intersects with my enjoyment of some other activity.

To your second point, I didn't really mean to make a strong claim about obligation. I should have phrased it as being about "making a contribution" or "participating in having caused something." The confusion about vagueness versus thresholds often arises in problems where people would feel obliged to do something, if doing it would "make a difference", but aren't sure how to tell whether they can make a difference - which is why I misphrased it as being a question about obligation.

Oh lord. The internet has struck again...

I like the Nova go server. When the board is set to full size and so is the browser, the appearance rivals any of the other go clients. Plus: all in the browser! No downloads! Anywhere you can surf the web, you can play go!

New features and refinements are being added all the time. The developers are very responsive during this phase development.

So, welcome to the present. Go presented with modern development tools. Come and check it out.

http://www.nova.gs

Can one download their games in sgf format on Nova? Thanks.

Yes. All games and reviews can be downloaded in sgf format.

You can even upload your own SGF files into your library on Nova

crodgers wrote:So, welcome to the present. Go presented with modern development tools. Come and check it out.

http://www.nova.gs

Every time I've looked at it there are zero live games being offered. Is there an automatch feature that I'm missing?

We've had a lot of live games running this weekend and at the end of last week, but since we are a fairly new server we obviously aren't swamped with live games.

My advice, until we are better established is to create a challenge (you can set your parameters for who can accept). Or come join us in chat and see if you can match up with someone... we have a lot of great players who are very happy to play.

jdl wrote:

crodgers wrote:So, welcome to the present. Go presented with modern development tools. Come and check it out.

http://www.nova.gs

Every time I've looked at it there are zero live games being offered. Is there an automatch feature that I'm missing?

Lack of live games is what we're trying to fix by posting. Hoping some increased traffic will generate some games.

Update: Nova now supports click and drag to mark review boards. No more individual clicking for marks. Click and drag will also remove all of the marks.

It does seem like the way to go for live games is to lurk in the chat and see if anyone will play.

How about starting out in a modest fashion, like a live-game Thursday or something equivalent. Offer a prize for the individual with the most live games played on that day... In fact, I'll offer the first prize: A solid, two inch Chinese Kaya board worth at least $100.00 dollars if not more. I can supply pictures, etc. The winner (or some other kind supporter) pays shipping - his/her choice.

deja wrote:How about starting out in a modest fashion, like a live-game Thursday or something equivalent. Offer a prize for the individual with the most live games played on that day... In fact, I'll offer the first prize: A solid, two inch Chinese Kaya board worth at least $100.00 dollars if not more. I can supply pictures, etc. The winner (or some other kind supporter) pays shipping - his/her choice.

That sounds great, but it also sounds like the sort of offer nova can only use once - and, as such, it might be better used for a larger event rather than a small, weekly one?