Life In 19x19

Bantari wrote:

topazg wrote:I suspect they're all more or less equal in value as areas of study. The opening is undeniably where the biggest moves are played, but I also suspect it's the area where the potential loss of points for making an error is smallest, hence the need for fighting and reading skill. It's also the stage of the game that leaves the longest period in which to claw back a deficit on the board.

I doubt however that you can ever progress to professional level play without being exceptional in all three areas - show me a pro that disregards the opening and just wins his games in the middle game fighting and endgame, and I'll change my opinion

But we are not talking about pros here, if I am not mistaken. We are giving advice to a low-level amateur, like all of us here, no?

As an extreme example - consider a beginner...
Whole board strategies are important, and you certainly cannot get good/pro without it. But at that level their influence on the game outcome is minimal, if any at all - when (a) the beginner would not understand anyways, and (b) he loses huge groups because he has no clue about two eyes yet... What is the point in this context to stress how important understanding whole board strategies is?

You can make the same argument here - you cannot be a pro without in-depth understanding of whole board strategies. But in the context of this discussion, this just completely misses the point. For now, whole-board strategies are just not that important to teach or explain or delve into. Just learn about life-and-death and some basic tesuji - this is the stepping-stone to the next level.

Just like, in this case, for a kyu player (I assume, or low dan ama, or whatever) an in-depth knowledge of a specific fuseki (or fuseki in general) is much less important than many many other aspects of the game. Some understanding of basic fuseki principles is more than enough. The games are decided elsewhere.

I am not really sure how to make it any more clear.

SmoothOper wrote:

Bantari wrote:

topazg wrote:I suspect they're all more or less equal in value as areas of study. The opening is undeniably where the biggest moves are played, but I also suspect it's the area where the potential loss of points for making an error is smallest, hence the need for fighting and reading skill. It's also the stage of the game that leaves the longest period in which to claw back a deficit on the board.

I doubt however that you can ever progress to professional level play without being exceptional in all three areas - show me a pro that disregards the opening and just wins his games in the middle game fighting and endgame, and I'll change my opinion

But we are not talking about pros here, if I am not mistaken. We are giving advice to a low-level amateur, like all of us here, no?

As an extreme example - consider a beginner...
Whole board strategies are important, and you certainly cannot get good/pro without it. But at that level their influence on the game outcome is minimal, if any at all - when (a) the beginner would not understand anyways, and (b) he loses huge groups because he has no clue about two eyes yet... What is the point in this context to stress how important understanding whole board strategies is?

You can make the same argument here - you cannot be a pro without in-depth understanding of whole board strategies. But in the context of this discussion, this just completely misses the point. For now, whole-board strategies are just not that important to teach or explain or delve into. Just learn about life-and-death and some basic tesuji - this is the stepping-stone to the next level.

Just like, in this case, for a kyu player (I assume, or low dan ama, or whatever) an in-depth knowledge of a specific fuseki (or fuseki in general) is much less important than many many other aspects of the game. Some understanding of basic fuseki principles is more than enough. The games are decided elsewhere.

I am not really sure how to make it any more clear.

Like I was saying weak ignorant players aren't good at Fuseki, only the strong players pay attention to Fuseki.

Eerika Norvio wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:
Like I was saying weak ignorant players aren't good at Fuseki, only the strong players pay attention to Fuseki.

No, many weak players pay attention to fuseki too. All pro players are strong at fuseki, but the implication doesn't go the other way.

SmoothOper wrote:

Eerika Norvio wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:
Like I was saying weak ignorant players aren't good at Fuseki, only the strong players pay attention to Fuseki.

No, many weak players pay attention to fuseki too. All pro players are strong at fuseki, but the implication doesn't go the other way.

You're bad at Fuseki, therefore you must be a weak beginner, and it doesn't matter what your reading ability is because you have all of these weak groups with no eyes. Its pretty clear cut.

Bantari wrote:
Ok, back up a little.
So, for the purposes of this conversation fuseki is about creating strong groups with two secure eyes?
If this is so, I withdraw anything I have said in this thread... but - is it so?!?

SmoothOper wrote:

Bantari wrote:
Ok, back up a little.
So, for the purposes of this conversation fuseki is about creating strong groups with two secure eyes?
If this is so, I withdraw anything I have said in this thread... but - is it so?!?

Fuseki, *ain't* about making dead groups now is it?

SmoothOper wrote:

Bantari wrote:
Ok, back up a little.
So, for the purposes of this conversation fuseki is about creating strong groups with two secure eyes?
If this is so, I withdraw anything I have said in this thread... but - is it so?!?

Fuseki, *ain't* about making dead groups now is it?

SmoothOper wrote:You're bad at Fuseki, therefore you must be a weak beginner, and it doesn't matter what your reading ability is because you have all of these weak groups with no eyes. Its pretty clear cut.

SmoothOper wrote:

Bantari wrote:
Ok, back up a little.
So, for the purposes of this conversation fuseki is about creating strong groups with two secure eyes?
If this is so, I withdraw anything I have said in this thread... but - is it so?!?

Fuseki, *ain't* about making dead groups now is it?

Bantari wrote:

topazg wrote:I suspect they're all more or less equal in value as areas of study. The opening is undeniably where the biggest moves are played, but I also suspect it's the area where the potential loss of points for making an error is smallest, hence the need for fighting and reading skill. It's also the stage of the game that leaves the longest period in which to claw back a deficit on the board.

I doubt however that you can ever progress to professional level play without being exceptional in all three areas - show me a pro that disregards the opening and just wins his games in the middle game fighting and endgame, and I'll change my opinion

But we are not talking about pros here, if I am not mistaken. We are giving advice to a low-level amateur, like all of us here, no?

As an extreme example - consider a beginner...
Whole board strategies are important, and you certainly cannot get good/pro without it. But at that level their influence on the game outcome is minimal, if any at all - when (a) the beginner would not understand anyways, and (b) he loses huge groups because he has no clue about two eyes yet... What is the point in this context to stress how important understanding whole board strategies is?

You can make the same argument here - you cannot be a pro without in-depth understanding of whole board strategies. But in the context of this discussion, this just completely misses the point. For now, whole-board strategies are just not that important to teach or explain or delve into. Just learn about life-and-death and some basic tesuji - this is the stepping-stone to the next level.

Just like, in this case, for a kyu player (I assume, or low dan ama, or whatever) an in-depth knowledge of a specific fuseki (or fuseki in general) is much less important than many many other aspects of the game. Some understanding of basic fuseki principles is more than enough. The games are decided elsewhere.

I am not really sure how to make it any more clear.

SmoothOper wrote:Its like Lee Changho, sure he touts his end game, but he knows if he doesn't play his standard baduk he is gonna get it handed to him.

SmoothOper wrote:

Eerika Norvio wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:
Like I was saying weak ignorant players aren't good at Fuseki, only the strong players pay attention to Fuseki.

No, many weak players pay attention to fuseki too. All pro players are strong at fuseki, but the implication doesn't go the other way.

You're bad at Fuseki, therefore you must be a weak beginner, and it doesn't matter what your reading ability is because you have all of these weak groups with no eyes. Its pretty clear cut.

topazg wrote:Indeed, we are not talking about pros, merely an amateur hobbyist - but if that's really your argument, my advice instead becomes "who cares whether it's the best thing to study - it's got value, and if you enjoy it do it"

topazg wrote:Either way, I find it hard to argue cohesively against someone's desire to study something in depth when they're clearly interested in it and it isn't valueless.

wineandgolover wrote:
I'm trying to figure out if this post is intentionally rude, or just willfully ignorant.