Life In 19x19

emeraldemon wrote:Something I've wondered before: is English the only language with national spelling competitions? The words they choose for those are a bit silly, but it does underline the vast complicated mess of English spelling.

In Japan they can sort of do the reverse. I haven't seen competitions, but on TV they'll show unusual kanji combinations and see if people can guess the pronunciation.

MJK wrote:Vote Yes Scotland 2014 wrote:
5/30/2013 11:57 PM

I have a spelling checker.
It came with my pea sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh.
My checker tolled me sew.

A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when I rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
eye trussed too bee a joule.
The checker pours o'er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.

Win your rite, your rite!

This is an interesting topic. In the end communication is the most important thing. If you can get to the point where you are understood by native speakers as well as understand their speech you have a high level of proficiency. The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules. I think the same is true for almost every native language (as opposed to artificially created languages like Esperanto). As for speaking a foreign language, there are three stages of a speaker's development: 1) your speech is so unskilled that native speakers can't easily understand and have to correct you a lot; 2) native speakers understand you easily but though you still make grammar and pronunciation mistakes, native speakers don't feel a need to correct you very much; 3) native speakers correct you because your speech is so good that minor errors seem important.

gowan wrote:As for speaking a foreign language, there are three stages of a speaker's development: 1) your speech is so unskilled that native speakers can't easily understand and have to correct you a lot; 2) native speakers understand you easily but though you still make grammar and pronunciation mistakes, native speakers don't feel a need to correct you very much; 3) native speakers correct you because your speech is so good that minor errors seem important.

I experienced two phases in Japan.

1) Nihongo wa ojouzu desu ne! (Your Japanese is very good.)

2) Just talking.

Aside from teachers and tutors, my girlfriend's mother was the only one to offer corrections to my Japanese. The lack of correction was somewhat frustrating.

As for understanding, Japlish could be horrible. I remember asking what koohii zeri was, only to be told emphatically that it was English! koohii I knew (coffee), but zeri? Turns out it was coffee jelly. Would anybody but the Japanese make coffee jelly? Or put mayonnaise on pizza?

Coffee Jelly? I've had that. We take chips (French Fries) and drown them in garlic mayo and put a lot of grated cheese on top. Curry sauce (note not related to, or tasting like, any Indian curry sauce) may be substituted for the mayo. Other options include adding marrowfat peas on top of the curry and possibly with the cheese but almost never with the mayo. Perhaps the oddest combination I've had is chips and stuffing (bread based stuffing, though sometimes potato based, normally reserved for roast chickens). Regarding pizza it was discovered that it is merely another way to serve an Irish breakfast yet charge more for the privilege.

At least we don't deep-fry everything I suppose, just the occasional Mars Bar or Creme Egg (Scottish people have mastered this culinary form).

gowan wrote: The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules.

And this is why I personally believe we should replay more Professional games, and less studying books on rules and technique.

xed_over wrote:

gowan wrote: The fact is that most native speakers of English have very little knowledge of formal grammar; they judge by whether it "sounds right". This perception of what sounds right comes from extensive exposure to the language in ordinary speech, literature, and written text. It doesn't come from explicit rules.

And this is why I personally believe we should replay more Professional games, and less studying books on rules and technique.

We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.

Boidhre wrote: We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.

Even for adults immersion is a better way to learn language than text books. Immersion for adults is just less practical.

oren wrote:

Boidhre wrote: We learn our native languages as children, not adults normally.

Even for adults immersion is a better way to learn language than text books. Immersion for adults is just less practical.

Eh, source? I'm curious, I've heard not the opposite but that immersion as a sole learning method only works for most people when they're young children. When you're older you normally need some other sources (not necessarily text books, but e.g. grammar drills) to go with the immersion that children don't seem to require.

Boidhre wrote: Eh, source? I'm curious, I've heard not the opposite but that immersion as a sole learning method only works for most people when they're young children. When you're older you normally need some other sources (not necessarily text books, but e.g. grammar drills) to go with the immersion that children don't seem to require.

Sorry on this one I'll claim mostly self-experience from going to Japan and staying with a host family. I was learning in classes on the side but 90% of the useful learning for me was chatting with the host family and others.

No studies to quote.

Simplifying written English would surely benefit those who haven't learned it yet, but for many living native speakers, the quirks of our language, including its spelling, are an integral part of our identity, and before you mess with that, you'll have to pry my computer from my cold dead hands.

I'm vaguely familiar with two spelling reforms, the German and the Chinese. The German one took place after I had learned to write in German, and by and large I found it had a somewhat uglifying effect, creating spellings such as "Betttuch" and "Ketschup" taking away "daß," my favorite word to write by hand. The simplification of written Chinese took place before I learned it, and I certainly appreciate anything that makes learning Chinese easier, but I also suspect that the written language has been robbed of some of its charm; I mean, they took the 心 (heart) out of 愛 (love)!

Although Germans are still Germans and Chinese still Chinese, as an American, I would feel as if I had descended into a land of monkeys if I was made to read and write English as MJK suggests. Nonetheless, kudos to his forward thinking, but that's why I think English should stay as it is.

Boidhre wrote:
Colour comes after size. So does temperature, a hot small coal versus small hot coal. Similar to how me saying "I'm sure you're tall and big!" sounds pretty odd. (I've had to retype several examples because my fingers kept typing them in the correct order, to give you some sense of how ingrained this is in me! )

Color* as in: The color of that armor is gray.

Unusedname wrote:

Boidhre wrote:
Colour comes after size. So does temperature, a hot small coal versus small hot coal. Similar to how me saying "I'm sure you're tall and big!" sounds pretty odd. (I've had to retype several examples because my fingers kept typing them in the correct order, to give you some sense of how ingrained this is in me! )

Color* as in: The color of that armor is gray.

I learned how to do some simple computer programming before I really had a firm grasp on spelling. The BASIC used with the Sinclair Spectrum got me into so much bloody trouble in school with those two words (no one bothered to point out until years later that these were "American spellings").

Or brass, hat, and shaft could all sound the same in your dialect, like they do to me. Merry, Mary, Marry. Caught, cot.

English is the world's best language for poetry.