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Re:
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:56 am
by Hades12
EdLee wrote: Hades,
Hades12 wrote: $$Bm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm1 This is what I want to happen but I'm unsure if he knows this joseki.
By "joseki", which move sequence were you referring to ? And are you sure it is joseki ?
(You know this is closed book, so you already know to wait until after the game to check joseki references.)
Edlee
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:59 am
by Hades12
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:59 am
by Hades12
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:47 am
by moyoaji
$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
A full night's sleep does wonders to a man's mind. I don't know why I was so greedy yesterday, desiring sente so much as to tenuki from a weak group, but my sanity has returned. I'm grateful it took Hades so long to make his last move.
A question one might ask is: would my group die if I tenuki'd right now. The answer is "no." Between what I have on the inside and what I have on the outside there is no doubt I could get two eyes. White cannot seal me in with one move and I have at least one eye on the inside. My group, for all intents and purposes, is alive.
However, I do not want my group to "just live." That is pointless. To have 20 stones live with 2 points between them is so sad. I fought with 13 and 15 to get out of the corner. Why should I forsake my stones now? Why should I allow white to seal me in on the outside?
I watched Nick Sibicky's lecture on the first game of the Lee Sedol vs. Gu Li series. He talked all about when to tenuki. And now I look at this board and the answer seems so obvious - do not tenuki from a weak group. Because I believe I can get something more valuable than sente. I get move 3 in the following diagram.
$$Bcm1 This move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This moveI am out. I am in the center. And I am aiming at 'a'. This move aims at 'a'.
And if white should be so kind as to let me have it then he can't stop me from taking away all the white points on the bottom with the wedge at
, because that move makes 'a' and 'b' miai.
$$Bcm1 This move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This moveWhen I read this out I laughed. It is perfectly placed. And I need not worry about the left yet. White's group at D7 is touching a group that is about to become strong. After I am out in the center I cannot easily be attacked. Whereas I can play a move around the 'z' area later to split white apart and take away his points.
How often I forget the proverb - "Invade the moyo one turn before it turns into territory." I was going to be way too hasty. So I apologize for being inconsistent with my words. But I would rather be totally inconsistent with my words than totally inconsistent with my go.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:36 am
by Hades12
$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
I can't complain. White looks better so far in this result. Moves at a, b,c look good. A seems most important as of now to seal off the bottom side. I might play B and then tenuki after black responds. C can wait because it still leaves the corner open for invasion.
$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:48 am
by moyoaji
$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
My group is out. While I like the move on the bottom side of the board I don't think I will play it right away, and I don't think white will defend it either. Instead, I'd like to play an enclosure for my upper side corner.
I feel much calmer about the game now. My only concern would be white getting a double-wing formation coming from the upper left, but again, that can't happen in one move.
My goal was to play for territory. While my center group won't get me much, it at least stabs a sword into any central potential white might have had. Now I just need to start trying to get points. I think I'd like to play at O16. That feels like a really big point. Hopefully white doesn't take it, but I wouldn't blame him if he did. I'd take it if I was white.
EDIT: Further analysis of the position now leads me to believe my move is actually sente. The cut at J3 seems like it would give me too good of a result. Whichever response white gives it seems impossible for him to keep all his stones connected and my wall plus the stone at 1 prevents his bottom group from running. It will have to live locally and I don't see how it can live locally without giving me half of the bottom side of the board.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:34 pm
by Hades12
$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:36 pm
by EdLee
VincentCB wrote: I think
is a mistake. Letting white play
below cannot be good. White still has 'a' or 'b' to settle his group on the lower side.
$$Bm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11Indeed, letting W to poke out like that with
seems very big for W.
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:40 pm
by EdLee
Hades12 wrote: $$Bm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm21 this move seals the side from being undercut. Still a large invasion point.
Not sure what Hades meant by that. His
is not a good combination with his other bottom stones --
it does not fix the big weakness at (a).
Locally (and globally?), maybe
directly at (a) is better.
Globally, (b) is a big shared point.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:32 am
by moyoaji
$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 3 . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
So he protects the bottom side, but I'm not sure if this move actually stops my invasion.
There is a proverb that says "invade the moyo one turn before it becomes territory." If my opponent got another move on the bottom I don't see how I would invade it anymore. Additionally, since
hurts my corner I think it would be in my best interest to weaken
and
.
I think white has to seal me into his framework and protect the outside. This would, of course, cost him all of his points on the bottom, but I think it is better than allowing me to split him. That being said, I hope he lets me split him. This is what I think the strongest play by white will lead to -
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 After
he'll have to either defend at 'a' or 'b'. So something is getting cut.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:50 am
by Hades12
$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 am
by Hades12
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:34 am
by VincentCB
If black wedges, can't white play like this? He has to give way a bit, but he stays connected and secures some territory.
$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners -
Re:
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:40 am
by skydyr
EdLee wrote:
Hades12 wrote: $$Bm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm21 this move seals the side from being undercut. Still a large invasion point.
Not sure what Hades meant by that. His
is not a good combination with his other bottom stones --
it does not fix the big weakness at (a).
Locally (and globally?), maybe
directly at (a) is better.
Globally, (b) is a big shared point.
My original assessment was that
was not good, because it doesn't gain anything significant for black, and it induces white to fix his weakpoint by playing A or one space above it. If white wants to allow the invasion, however, things suddenly become rather dicey, as white is quite possibly letting himself be split into two weakish groups in an area of black strength. Black can even push at B and then follow up with A, since it would be pretty painful for white not to respond to B, and if he takes A, he's still not making a gigantic territory.
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:55 pm
by EdLee
VincentCB wrote: If black wedges, can't white play like this? He has to give way a bit, but he stays connected and secures some territory.
$$Bm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm21What if B counter ataris with
, allowing
ponnuki, then connects with
? The
group looks a little unhappy.
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BBut W can also connect back if W ataris again on the bottom with
, allowing
ponnuki in sente:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
, because that move makes 'a' and 'b' miai.
is a mistake. Letting white play 
below cannot be good. White still has 'a' or 'b' to settle his group on the lower side.
is not a good combination with his other bottom stones --
and 
he'll have to either defend at 'a' or 'b'. So something is getting cut.
was not good, because it doesn't gain anything significant for black, and it induces white to fix his weakpoint by playing A or one space above it. If white wants to allow the invasion, however, things suddenly become rather dicey, as white is quite possibly letting himself be split into two weakish groups in an area of black strength. Black can even push at B and then follow up with A, since it would be pretty painful for white not to respond to B, and if he takes A, he's still not making a gigantic territory.
, allowing 
? The 
group looks a little unhappy.