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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:11 am
by Joaz Banbeck
@black:
Kirby wrote: ...
I think Joaz's idea of knight's move is good for extending our influence. But I fear that they will protect in sente (since we have to answer on the top), and then counter attack. For example:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I've been trying to find a reliable continuation here, but I have come to the conclusion that the aji is terrible. Therefore, I agree with Kirby when he says:
Kirby wrote: My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:59 pm
by emeraldemon
@white
I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:42 am
by skydyr
emeraldemon wrote: @white
I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:22 am
by emeraldemon
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:55 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@black:
Kirby wrote: ...
My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1This seems best to me. @TegaiS: I think that you have referred to something like this in the recent past.
Shall we tell them that we play
and that
is a trigger if they play
?
And...
shall we give them two addtional triggers like this?
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:17 pm
by Kirby
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:38 pm
by TegaiS
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:55 pm
by Kirby
FYI, I will be heading to Korea this weekend, and won't have the same Internet access as usual. I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old. I entrust my voting during this two and a half week period to my beloved teammates, Joaz and TegaiS.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:47 am
by Uberdude
@obs (and possibly players too as I discuss a long-gone situation over a dozen moves ago).
I only just discovered this game, and wondered how white got into such an ugly shape (black is leading considerably from this fight). White's 3-3 in this corner seems fair enough and fighting spirit (even though he doesn't have the ladder so has to play bad shape kosumi push into rather than cut across waist of knight's move next), but the g16 cut turned out very badly due to black's strong move at h17. If k16 was one line closer then that cut would have been ok as h17 wouldn't work. As it was I think white had to make the other cut. emeraldemon even suggested the good continuation below:
emeraldemon wrote: @white
I'm curious: could we start by attacking the top stones and wait to see the best play on the left?
$$Bcm21 Something like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Something like this?But no one addressed this and it seems they went with andreyl's suggestion of the other cut, but he hadn't envisaged black's strong continuations after h17. I think
here is the key move, after the extension of 24 white makes miai of surrounding and attacking one of black's cut groups. White should not feel obliged to answer on the left side: if black were to play a move like
a white simply thumbs his nose and plays
b for a trade (and the left side is still far from black territory). If black answers white 6 on the top white will get stronger and then and continue on the left.
skydyr posted this sequence which I think shows faulty strategy of answering your opponent's move too much and not following up on the miai threat of surrounding one of the cut groups:
skydyr wrote: @white
$$Bcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21I thought white's stones would all be working decently after this. None of black's groups are alive and white's stones are all working.
Note how the marked white stone and 6 have created a narrow gap through which black is forced to run, damaging white on both sides (need to defend cut at
a now). I suppose one could say white aims to play
b here and force black out, but I feel white is too busy like that and should play more solidly. Here's another way to think of it: at move 25 below it is black's move, but imagine he passed then white's would love to play as shown to surround and possibly kill black. So white has a very good move that black needs to avoid.
$$Bcm21 Powerful threat black must avoid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Powerful threat black must avoidBut now let's consider a similar situation after skydyr's sequence. It is now black to move after 30, but what is white's threat if black were to pass? White ''a'' is possibly it, making a loose surround of the black group. But it has a lot more eyespace on the left side. So I think of this sequence as black
in sente reducing the severity of white's threat. Giving your opponent gain in sente is to be avoided. It's fine for him to make gain in gote because then you get something too, but gain in sente means he got something for nothing. Now it's not quite so simple here because white's 28-30 stones aren't nothing and weaken black's stones in the lower left, though they could also be weak themselves in the fight if black doesn't pass as in this thought experiment. But this idea of not giving your opponent something (less severe attack on left group) in sente is why I want to play 26 as emeraldemon's move of surrounding the top group.
$$Bcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:51 am
by Uberdude
Kirby wrote: I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.
So you will be 11 days old in 19 days? Can I borrow your time machine?
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:21 am
by Bill Spight
Kirby wrote: FYI, I will be heading to Korea this weekend, and won't have the same Internet access as usual. I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.
Have a great trip, and don't play too much baduk.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:27 pm
by Schachus
Uberdude wrote: Kirby wrote: I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.
So you will be 11 days old in 19 days? Can I borrow your time machine?
Either I dont get your point, or you got the maths wrong. 2^(1/5)!= 2^(-5)= 1/32
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:56 pm
by Uberdude
Woops, how embarrassing!
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:05 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Uberdude wrote: Woops, how embarrassing!
But you probably are correct that white should have made the other cut.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:30 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Kirby wrote: FYI, I will be heading to Korea...
Enjoy your trip.
and that 
is a trigger if they play 
?
here is the key move, after the extension of 24 white makes miai of surrounding and attacking one of black's cut groups. White should not feel obliged to answer on the left side: if black were to play a move like a white simply thumbs his nose and plays b for a trade (and the left side is still far from black territory). If black answers white 6 on the top white will get stronger and then and continue on the left.