Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:58 am**

Bill Spight wrote:
Fedya wrote:So what you're saying is that I should have played F3 here instead of several moves later?
Well, I would probably have played the double approach before this position, but I am interested in this position because I think that it is a good position for formulating a game plan.

Fedya, how do you assess this position?
Black and White are even on the right. Black's position on the left is open, but that's canceled out by White's being open on the bottom. White is probably slightly ahead thanks to the top, but Black has sente and can enter into White's open moyo first.
IMO, White has the lead now and Black never caught up.

Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?

And how do you think that White got ahead?

With the biggest open area being ready for severe pressure, I think Black is not that far behind. Of course Black may have to defend against a cut in the upper right. White's stones cooperate well and he's fairly strong all over the place. Black too, but he has perhaps omitted to apply the right amount of pressure in the opening, gradually losing the benefit of moving first.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:58 pm**

IMO, White has the lead now and Black never caught up.

As I said, every time I tried to count I seemed slightly behind and could never figure out a way to catch up.

Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?

White has open frameworks on both the top and the bottom that Black can invade. Either the double approach at F3, or some places at the top, like G17 or M16. Black obviously has an open framework on the side, but defending it right now would be passive and slow.

And how do you think that White got ahead?

Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:57 pm**

Fedya wrote:
And how do you think that White got ahead?
Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.

I think that Black dropped the ball with

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you don't play the jump, where do you play?

Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?

Fedya wrote:White has open frameworks on both the top and the bottom that Black can invade. Either the double approach at F3, or some places at the top, like G17 or M16. Black obviously has an open framework on the side, but defending it right now would be passive and slow.

How might you exploit White's weaknesses? You did invade at G-17 and make the double approach at F-03 later in the game, but you did not play the pincer at M-16. Does any other move come to mind (aside from your actual play)? Play around with the positions and try out some variations. What conclusions do you draw?

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:52 am**

Fedya wrote: You're right that I need to study the L-group and J-group more. Surprisingly, they don't seem to come up all that often in my games, so on the rare occasions they do come up I feel like I'm trying to solve it from the beginning again.

They probably will come up after you study them. After I learned about the L-group I L-ified my opponent's stone in many 9x9-games.

Similarly, I did some exercices on the L+3 side group (which is a critical 2-space notcher). In my next (19x19) game I saw "hey, I can live here by making an L+3-group".

Right now, I have learned about the carpenter's square without liberties and am waiting for it to come up (or I will look up which josekis are susceptible to make it come up).

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:18 pm**

Bill Spight wrote:
Fedya wrote:
And how do you think that White got ahead?
Ed Lee mentioned P14, which really should have been around O17 or P17. I think I also got behind by not playing a pincer attack when White approached in the top left.
I think that Black dropped the ball with .

$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If you don't play the jump, where do you play?

was a mistake? I thought I was playing a good move, expanding my group and making it safer, while setting the state to put pressure on the white group above. After all, White had to respond with Q12, which I thought was rather small.

I guess I should have played immediate at R12?

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:23 pm**

Fedya wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I think that Black dropped the ball with .

$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If you don't play the jump, where do you play?
was a mistake? I thought I was playing a good move, expanding my group and making it safer, while setting the state to put pressure on the white group above. After all, White had to respond with Q12, which I thought was rather small.

It gives White a base, and threatens to approach the top right corner.

I guess I should have played immediate at R12?

That's the threat of R-16, isn't it?

Also, weakening White strengthens Black in that region.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How would you feel as White?

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:08 pm**

Wouldn't you know I'd have the chance to play a splitting attack like that in my game today? And wouldn't you know it didn't work out anything like Bill's post implies it should? Meanwhile, my opponent plays a splitting attack against my Kobayashi fuseki, and gets a good position out of it.

I think F16 should have been at E16, but that's about the only tactical mistake I can find. I guess my mistakes were strategic, picking risky pincer attacks instead of going for sure territory. And playing the wedge on the left side.

(Oh, and it's tough to keep a positive attitude when the game is clearly lost 70 moves in.)

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:38 pm**

splitting attack is effective in bill's diagram because both of white stones are weak. in your game only one of your opponent's stones was weak.

with regards to the bottom, 39 is REALLY BAD. it's REALLY BAD.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:36 pm**

Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.

Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:14 pm**

variation. After the cross cut (

R4,

Q4 ),

atari is S3.
One joseki continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc :b11: connects at (a) $$ . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 9 a O . . | $$ . . 7 8 3 5 . . | $$ . . . 4 O X . . | $$ . . . 0 X O 1 . | $$ . . . . . 2 6 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

Maybe R7 better ?

Shape problem at Q8. ( Related to

at R7, maybe. )

H3, M3 possible invasion points. ( Not sure about the timing. )

Impossible (re: Shaddy). Toothpaste.
Locally, L5 atari is natural. Have to watch out for weakness at P6.

Gote.

W should tenuki. ( Maybe J8, etc. )

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:28 pm**

with regards to the bottom, 39 is REALLY BAD. it's REALLY BAD.

I was going to post this morning except that the boards were down, but obviously you want me to play the other atari and keep White confined to the bottom?

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:34 pm**

Kirby wrote:Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.

I couldn't see a way to kill White. And needless to say, I was none to pleased at how little I got (again) from influence.

Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.[/quote]
Doesn't that put pressure on the F3 stone?

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:37 pm**

EdLee:

Give me time to try to figure out what makes your joseki suggestion better than the variation I included in the game. I still have a lot of difficulty seeing why some joseki are better than others.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:40 pm**

Fedya wrote:
Kirby wrote:Instead of H2, I like M3 - you should keep that area. Once white breaks in and lives, your influence is useless.
I couldn't see a way to kill White. And needless to say, I was none to pleased at how little I got (again) from influence.

Even before that, instead of G4, maybe play h4. You are strong on bottom so you need to get a good result in that area.
Doesn't that put pressure on the F3 stone?

I think the M3 area is more important than the F3 stone, given the stones you already have in the area. Besides, you can do 3-3 later, anyway.

Attaching with H4 in this kind of shape is a common pattern. Not always correct, but often worth considering.

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:17 pm**

I still have a lot of difficulty seeing why some joseki are better than others.

Yes; please join the club.

Life In 19x19

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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

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