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Teamovitch #1

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Page 23 of 42

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:49 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
fwiffo wrote:...
...Though I don't feel very confident about the game right now.


Black internal chat:
What's not to like? I think that they have about 25 points of territory and one weak group.
We have 35 points of territory, one weak group, and komi. And we have the R9 stone deep in their territory which has all kinds of aji.
I thought that we are clearly ahead.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:45 pm
by Shaddy
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
fwiffo wrote:...
...Though I don't feel very confident about the game right now.


Black internal chat:
What's not to like? I think that they have about 25 points of territory and one weak group.
We have 35 points of territory, one weak group, and komi. And we have the R9 stone deep in their territory which has all kinds of aji.
I thought that we are clearly ahead.


For joaz:
Where do you count 35 points of territory? I see about 25 solid points for black

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:48 pm
by Jedo
Sorry! I was busy getting my ass kicked by Magicwand

black internal/suggestion
First of all, I definitely like the way the game is going so far. Jordus' suggestion may not be ideal, as I think using those peeps is just aki keshi for now and I'd rather omit those exchanges. I like fwiffo's suggestion, however:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Move 31 Suggestion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's so annoying to let white get this shape, which just is so good for white in this running battle. Because white's shape is so weak I think we might be able to play a little stronger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Move 31 Suggestion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My suggestion. This weakens white, and if white just grabs the one stone there are a few thigns we might be able to do:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Move 31 Suggestion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 9 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O b . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 2 , . . . X . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 4 X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 5 6 8 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Playing like this might be fine. It's a tough call, but my concern the other way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Move 31 Suggestion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 6 3 5 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Who is gaining more from the running fight? I'm concerned white may be benefiting more than we have to let them

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:57 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Shaddy wrote:For joaz:
Where do you count 35 points of territory? I see about 25 solid points for black


@Shaddy:
I see
5 in the top left,
12-15 in the top right,
15-18 in the lower left.

It depends, I suppose, what you mean by 'solid'. If you mean "Lee-Changho-can't-take-it-from-me-solid", then it is only 20 points. :)

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:41 pm
by Redundant
Suggestion
L7 just screams shape move to me.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:39 am
by tj86430
White suggestion:
Redundant wrote:L7 just screams shape move to me.

I completely agree, but to suggest something else I suggest J6.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:13 am
by topazg
I'm glad you both think so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To Team and Observers:

I think we've just taken a point Black really wanted. Black's last move doesn't threaten to cut at M4, helps us completely fix our group, lets us harrass the lower right corner in sente against Black's dragon, and, well, doesn't do very much for Black either. Maybe a case of overthinking? Maybe Joaz didn't get our point as a suggestion, but to me it was Black's only move. Now we should get sente to return to the top left I hope.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:13 am
by Chew Terr
I think they just got a little greedier. Wanted to make a bunch of points while also inducing themselves to run further out. That's my guess at their reasoning, at least. And since I slept too long to submit a move, I'll retroactively suggest... A1.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:23 am
by topazg
WIC:

I'd believe the points argument if Black didn't also have an open skirt down there. I really cannot fathom Black's last move.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:27 am
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote:WIC:

I'd believe the points argument if Black didn't also have an open skirt down there. I really cannot fathom Black's last move.

Maybe my move suggestion (which Joaz accidentally moved) was just TOO indimidating!

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:22 am
by Shaddy
Ok, thanks joaz.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:21 pm
by Jordus
Black Internal chat:

a few moves I am currently considering..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . d . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(a) seems to be the move to make if black wants to move for that huge center.

(b) looks to be the move if black wants to focus on that moyo...

(c) would be influentially better than (b) when focusing on the moyo and allows for black to move towards the center, but could present too much aji later on..

(d) another move for pushing the center...

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:45 pm
by Jedo
black suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 2 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
At first I thought I sequence like this was inevitable and I wasn't too thrilled, but it looks like we can play more actively. My suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What might happen:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Doesn't look like white can cut
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 8 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 5 6 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 4 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White falls apart. So yeah, lets hane!

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:16 pm
by Jordus
Black Suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:27 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Fwiffo?
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 23 of 42

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