Well, apparently I just managed to get chatty people for my placements, mostly nothing more than gl, hf, gg, etc. in the rest of my games . It's likely the NA server is no more or less polite than the the SEA one .
[edit] Seems like my horrible play is enough to get into diamond in NA as well.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:41 am
by Tooveli
I thought I'd share my first game in Diamond league. Fortunately the random dice were on my side and I got to play Protoss. The game is pretty standard but I'd be interested in a few comments on it as I feel I played near the top of my current ability. Here's the replay http://replayfu.com/r/SKG8Jf
Questions/Observations:
1. I over-saturate my main base. I don't want to stop making probes and his push is coming at around the time that I want to expand. I don't feel comfortable expanding with the push coming so I delay it to make sure I have more units. Is this a problem? Should I be cutting probes to avoid oversaturation? Should I expand earlier (hard with the backdoor entrance to the main base on this map). I get a huge boost when my expansion comes up but am playing pretty inefficiently until it does.
2. After the first confrontation I decide not to counter attack immediately but wait for another colossus. Is this good/bad? Looking at the replay it's not obvious. I give him time to regroup, rebuild and possibly get some vikings out but the extra Colossus makes a big difference to my army.
3. I'm pretty proud of my forcefield usage to get the expansion snipe - I guess the game is pretty much over at that point. Forcefields are good! Probably didn't need to use two though.
4. I built a couple of colossi and left them idling in my base..... 600m400g worth of army that I just forget about. Oh well.
5. I have absolutely no idea when a good time to warp in a forge is. I tend to just do it when I remember and feel I can spare the 150 minerals.
6. I don't like my Robotics Bay/Forge placement - banshees might be able to snipe either and that would be annoying.
7. I would have benefited from hiding a few pylons around the map. It's always annoying to have to bring a probe along with a push and wait for the pylon to finish before you can reinforce locally.
8. I think I need to work on getting generally faster (I was so panicked that game (needed to remember to breathe again after it finished) and thought I was frantically clicking much faster than usual - but turns out I was playing slightly slower). I also probably should start trying to micro a bit in battles, I generally just ignore them and focus more on macro. Anything else I should work on?
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:59 pm
by Solomon
Tooveli wrote:Questions/Observations:
1. I over-saturate my main base. I don't want to stop making probes and his push is coming at around the time that I want to expand. I don't feel comfortable expanding with the push coming so I delay it to make sure I have more units. Is this a problem? Should I be cutting probes to avoid oversaturation? Should I expand earlier (hard with the backdoor entrance to the main base on this map). I get a huge boost when my expansion comes up but am playing pretty inefficiently until it does.
2. After the first confrontation I decide not to counter attack immediately but wait for another colossus. Is this good/bad? Looking at the replay it's not obvious. I give him time to regroup, rebuild and possibly get some vikings out but the extra Colossus makes a big difference to my army.
3. I'm pretty proud of my forcefield usage to get the expansion snipe - I guess the game is pretty much over at that point. Forcefields are good! Probably didn't need to use two though.
4. I built a couple of colossi and left them idling in my base..... 600m400g worth of army that I just forget about. Oh well.
5. I have absolutely no idea when a good time to warp in a forge is. I tend to just do it when I remember and feel I can spare the 150 minerals.
6. I don't like my Robotics Bay/Forge placement - banshees might be able to snipe either and that would be annoying.
7. I would have benefited from hiding a few pylons around the map. It's always annoying to have to bring a probe along with a push and wait for the pylon to finish before you can reinforce locally.
8. I think I need to work on getting generally faster (I was so panicked that game (needed to remember to breathe again after it finished) and thought I was frantically clicking much faster than usual - but turns out I was playing slightly slower). I also probably should start trying to micro a bit in battles, I generally just ignore them and focus more on macro. Anything else I should work on?
gg, I love any PvT where bioball + EMPs lose. I thought it was interesting you didn't transition out of Colossis and kept making them despite seeing the Vikings, most Protoss players I've seen either make a quick transition from Colossis to HTs (so they don't get more than 2 - 3 Colossis) or just skip Colossis entirely and go for HTs. Then again, iirc the Twilight Council was never put up so I'm guessing you felt kind of committed?
1. I thought your expo timing was fine.
2. The Colossus was pretty important, so it looked good to wait.
3. I was surprised you didn't kill the 3 units that got stuck when you threw that second FF? Seems like it was pretty much free kills.
5. Sticking a forge into a standard BO like your 2 gate 1 robo is hard, I agree. When I watch high-level replays, it seems they also vary a lot on when they put up that forge in such a case as well. I also tend to get them rather late except in PvZ, where the +1 attack matters more for lots.
6. I thought it was more unusual that your buildings were so compact and close to the Nexus. I think spreading them out, even just a little bit, is better in PvT because they will get less information per scan. Furthermore, it can create choke points and cause a bit of problem for any enemy army that funnels through them.
8. Unlike WC3, in the mid to late game, micro matters less I think so it's not too problematic.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:14 pm
by Tooveli
Thanks for the comments. Hopefully I'll have a more interesting one to share at some point.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:44 pm
by Solomon
Just a reminder that the GSL is resuming today (2am PST/5am EST); expecting lots of quality games since we're in the ro16 now. Notable players include manner-muling oGsTOP, cannon-rushing InCa, and Cool, one of only two Zerg players remaining though that may soon change in the next season. Can't wait!
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:26 pm
by fwiffo
God, I was reading that thread. Such crazy hyperbole about balance. I mean, I get it, Zerg is pretty demonstrably weaker. I think tournament results and ladder statistics bear that out. And I hate marauders too. But most of the whiners are 9 year old bronze players that act like Blizzard has been killing kittens and using the fur to upholster the seats in hellions. Unless you're near the very top, balance issues just aren't going to be that big a deal. Yes, Idra and Cool have reason to complain - they're competing for big-time money, and they're at a skill level where balance issues are very important. But the rabble should quit their whining and practice more. Or if they can't handle that, just play the campaign and enjoy the freaking game.
It seems like 90% of the threads on teamliquid are dominated by strange mix of prepubescent whiners and old-timer BW players that can't handle the tiniest change to their flawless 12 year old game. A lot of them are acting like the in-game clock is this great betrayal, that will make the game WAY too easy for n00bs and instantly catapult them to the top of the ladder. Get a grip! (I appreciated Day[9]'s mockery of them with their "martini's and cigars").
I ran into a Zerg on the ladder the other day, and after I held off his first push with a forcefield, and a handful of gateway units, he immediately starts BMing "toss so f'ing OP" whining and moaning. OMG, it's a huge imbalance that you can't kill me for free 5 minutes into the game. Dude, we're in SILVER, balance doesn't mean crap. He went on to win, because I somehow left my colossi behind, letting his hydras eat everything else, so I mocked him with "OMG, Zerg is SO OP! gg"
/rant
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:29 pm
by Solomon
Regarding InCa's game 2:
I've always complained that PvP is a very dry matchup that's usually a giant Colossi laser show unless an all-in like a 4-gate stops one side before it happens. But this game gave me a lot of hope for the future of PvP. Void Ray juggling is just soooooo cool and, like the casters said, in a few years people will get very good at this highly APM-intensive play. I thought it was pretty sick how InCa managed to comeback in that game as well, probably one of the biggest comebacks in the GSL, second to TLO's comeback against Hyperdub in game 1. Anyways, I'll definitely be trying this Starport build and working with VRs in PvP for a bit, should be fun.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:39 pm
by Tooveli
Araban wrote:Regarding InCa's game 2:
I've always complained that PvP is a very dry matchup that's usually a giant Colossi laser show unless an all-in like a 4-gate stops one side before it happens. But this game gave me a lot of hope for the future of PvP. Void Ray juggling is just soooooo cool and, like the casters said, in a few years people will get very good at this highly APM-intensive play. I thought it was pretty sick how InCa managed to comeback in that game as well, probably one of the biggest comebacks in the GSL, second to TLO's comeback against Hyperdub in game 1. Anyways, I'll definitely be trying this Starport build and working with VRs in PvP for a bit, should be fun.
I didn't understand it at all. How did InCa come back? The only thing I saw happening was that he was on the ropes so he stopped making void rays, his opponent continued to suicide in void rays one at a time and so soon InCa was ahead. It makes me wonder if the correct response once noticing the opponent was also going void rays was to stop void ray production and switch to mass stalkers in the first place. It seems that they are only cost effective once you have 3 or more (unless just harassing with them) sending them in one at a time was a huge loss.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:07 pm
by Solomon
Tooveli wrote:
Araban wrote:Regarding InCa's game 2:
I've always complained that PvP is a very dry matchup that's usually a giant Colossi laser show unless an all-in like a 4-gate stops one side before it happens. But this game gave me a lot of hope for the future of PvP. Void Ray juggling is just soooooo cool and, like the casters said, in a few years people will get very good at this highly APM-intensive play. I thought it was pretty sick how InCa managed to comeback in that game as well, probably one of the biggest comebacks in the GSL, second to TLO's comeback against Hyperdub in game 1. Anyways, I'll definitely be trying this Starport build and working with VRs in PvP for a bit, should be fun.
I didn't understand it at all. How did InCa come back? The only thing I saw happening was that he was on the ropes so he stopped making void rays, his opponent continued to suicide in void rays one at a time and so soon InCa was ahead. It makes me wonder if the correct response once noticing the opponent was also going void rays was to stop void ray production and switch to mass stalkers in the first place. It seems that they are only cost effective once you have 3 or more (unless just harassing with them) sending them in one at a time was a huge loss.
I think he just overestimated the power of a fully charged VR, tbh. Yeah a fully charged VR is sweet and wreaks havoc, but it's not invincible-mode either.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:26 am
by MountainGo
If you like to see good crisis management, here's an exciting game from the GSL with HyperDub using a Marine/Bunker/SCV rush against Tester: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1128/0
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:32 pm
by Solomon
MountainGo wrote:If you like to see good crisis management, here's an exciting game from the GSL with HyperDub using a Marine/Bunker/SCV rush against Tester: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1128/0
Yeah, this game was just sick. I think it also provides a damn good reason why one should enable health bars, you can't busy yourself with the alt button in those sort of situations. The second game they played, while not as exciting, was definitely more informative and just shows that Tester is not only good at crisis management, but he is just a solid all-around player in both micro and macro. It just seemed Tester was always one step ahead (keeping sente? ) of his opponent the entire game, and the Phoenix play to distract the Vikings from the Colossi was great.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:28 am
by Solomon
Regarding the quarter-finals:
Just disappointing. Won't bother watching the semi-finals, no Tester or any Protoss players remaining. None of the games were very good either. InCa getting 6-pooled and baneling busted, Tester losing to textbook MMM play, and HongUn losing to the same early timing push build twice. I will sleep sad.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:27 pm
by ketchup
Araban wrote:Regarding the quarter-finals:
Just disappointing. Won't bother watching the semi-finals, no Tester or any Protoss players remaining. None of the games were very good either. InCa getting 6-pooled and baneling busted, Tester losing to textbook MMM play, and HongUn losing to the same early timing push build twice. I will sleep sad.
You are not interested in Cool being the only Zerg left? That's seriously impressive, and I'd honestly would like to see him win because he pulls off some great upsets. I'd like to think playing Zerg isn't a disadvantage, and that skill can make up for it. Cool seems to prove this.
It's still a bit sad though that out of that huge player pool, it's 3 Terran and 1 Zerg. ONE Zerg! No Protoss!
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:56 pm
by fwiffo
I think it would behoove you to watch the semi-final series between Fruit Dealer (cool) and NEXLiveForever. Not watching them might be regrettable.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:58 pm
by CSamurai
ketchup wrote:
Araban wrote:Regarding the quarter-finals:
Just disappointing. Won't bother watching the semi-finals, no Tester or any Protoss players remaining. None of the games were very good either. InCa getting 6-pooled and baneling busted, Tester losing to textbook MMM play, and HongUn losing to the same early timing push build twice. I will sleep sad.
You are not interested in Cool being the only Zerg left? That's seriously impressive, and I'd honestly would like to see him win because he pulls off some great upsets. I'd like to think playing Zerg isn't a disadvantage, and that skill can make up for it. Cool seems to prove this.
It's still a bit sad though that out of that huge player pool, it's 3 Terran and 1 Zerg. ONE Zerg! No Protoss!
I kinda look forward to seeing if future tourneys shake out this way. We're at the very start of the SC2 tournament arc, I'm curious to see if the balance of power will shift, or if the balance is legitimately leaning in terran favour.
I think it's legitimately leaning away from zerg. Poor guys. Yes, skill can 'make up for it', but really, that's like saying that a player who is one stone stronger than me can 'make up for' not having komi against me. Props to Cool, who is strong enough to play zerg in the face of Terran Domination. Who knows. Maybe someone will find something broken in the zerg builds, and they'll suddenly become the best thing around again.
I'm dissapointed in the Protoss failing out. I would have liked to see Tester make it further.
So, I bought SC2. And I'm playing through the single player missions. Arg. Choices like Haven make me all twisted up inside.
In other news, I'm terrible at multiplayer, I'm in the practice league, and uh, yeah, I suck. Of course, I usually suck at multiplayer in RTS. It's not my forte. I tend to hyperfocus, develop too slow, and build too many things. If I get in a battle, I totally forget whatever else is going on, and often look up to having a LOT of minerals.
Of course, I still haven't played much (a few games in beta until getting rushed by protoss got old, which brings me to a question, how do you get 10 stalkers in under a minute?) so I'm still not even sure what builds I'm interested in yet. I tend to find myself trying to be too diverse.
I'll post my ID when I'm at home (don't remember my number) so that you all can point and laugh.
. It's likely the NA server is no more or less polite than the the SEA one 
.