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Prokovich game

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=1443

Page 24 of 33

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:26 am
by daniel_the_smith
Whoa, :w74: shocks me, I would have criticized that move a lot if I was reviewing this game. How is it not major aji-keshi?

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:24 am
by gaius
daniel_the_smith wrote:Whoa, :w74: shocks me, I would have criticized that move a lot if I was reviewing this game. How is it not major aji-keshi?


This kind of peep destroys the cut, but it also makes black heavy by destroying his eye potential there; also, black's group is now absolutely and utterly unsacrificeable. It's the kind of move that you'd play while attacking severely.

I have to say, I didn't expect this either. Is there really a severe enough attack possible here?

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:32 pm
by Jedo
Honestly, I'm still not really sold on :b73: It seems too slow and passive and gives white a chance to stabilize. Something like K18 seemed a lot better for black to me. Was the cut really a problem at all? I guess we'll see what black's thinking was soon. Maybe it's just about making points in sente when there wasn't really anything to get with something like K18?

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:08 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
gaius wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:Whoa, :w74: shocks me, I would have criticized that move a lot if I was reviewing this game. How is it not major aji-keshi?


This kind of peep destroys the cut, but it also makes black heavy by destroying his eye potential there...


I don't see that it does destroy eye potential much:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Before the exchange, black needed a move to get an eye. After the exchange, black needs a move to make an eye. I see no net profit for white there.
It still looks like aji-keshi. And now H6 by black is even bigger.

I think dfan is making this up as he goes along. :D

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:04 pm
by dfan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I think dfan is making this up as he goes along. :D

Shhhh!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 ACTUAL GAME: Move 76. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:21 pm
by Magicwand
i think next move is obvious. (make sure i erase "Actual Game")
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 : Move 76. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:56 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Magicwand wrote:i think next move is obvious. (make sure i erase "Actual Game")
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 : Move 76. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That is probably the biggest, but it is slow. I don't think that black can afford to play it.

I counted. Even after that play, white is ahead on the board by about 10 points, plus komi. Black is rapidly running out of options to win this game. Playing a big gote move here is - in the words of a Korean 6P whose name I forget - walking step by step to your grave.

I think that black must play aggressively here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:17 pm
by dfan
My rule is, if two dan players have commented, I can go on to the next move. Let this be an incentive to get your predictions in early!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 ACTUAL GAME: Move 77. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:19 pm
by Magicwand
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Magicwand wrote:i think next move is obvious. (make sure i erase "Actual Game")
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 : Move 76. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That is probably the biggest, but it is slow. I don't think that black can afford to play it.

I counted. Even after that play, white is ahead on the board by about 10 points, plus komi. Black is rapidly running out of options to win this game. Playing a big gote move here is - in the words of a Korean 6P whose name I forget - walking step by step to your grave.

I think that black must play aggressively here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i am sorry to burst your bubble..but you counted wrong. it is close game and i think black is winning.
what you suggested is not agressive but foolish. it has no purpose and it is very close to playing dame.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:23 pm
by Magicwand
for this i am pretty sure white will play as below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 NOT ACTUAL GAME: Move 77. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . 2 , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


disconnecting is out of the question.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 NOT ACTUAL GAME: Move 77. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:35 pm
by Dusk Eagle
:b77: is the type of move I'm trying to see more of in my games. A deep move with two escape routes due to the bad aji in the opponent's shape.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:40 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Magicwand wrote:... it is close game and i think black is winning...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 : Move 76. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | C C C C C . . . . . . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | C C C C C X . . . . . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | C C C C C X O . . . . . . . X C C C C |
$$ | C C X C X O S . . , 1 . . . . , X C C |
$$ | . . C C X O S O . . . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . . X C X O . . . . . . . . . . C C |
$$ | . . . X C X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . S S |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . S S |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O S S |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O S S S |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O S S |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O # S S |
$$ | . . . O S # # O X C C W X . . O S S S |
$$ | S S O # # S S O . X X W C X . . O S S |
$$ | S S O S S S O S O O X C C . . . . S S |
$$ | S S S S S S S S . . . . . . . . . S S |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the board I count black = 46, white = 53.
Beyond that, black has two prisoners which I forgot. Black seems to have slighly better prospects in the middle, which are hard to quantify. White has komi, of presumably 4.5 to 7.5 points.

I prefer white here.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:48 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Magicwand wrote:for this i am pretty sure white will play as below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 NOT ACTUAL GAME: Move 77. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . 2 , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...


Locally, right around :b77:, white is stronger. Playing a contact move here seems unduly defensive.
White's move below is better shape, and follows the proverb of not strengthening a weak stone with a contact move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:47 pm
by Dusk Eagle
How is :b77: a weak stone? It can very easily connect to the strong black group.

Re: Prokovich game

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:30 am
by gaius
Joaz Banbeck wrote:On the board I count black = 46, white = 53.
Beyond that, black has two prisoners which I forgot. Black seems to have slighly better prospects in the middle, which are hard to quantify. White has komi, of presumably 4.5 to 7.5 points.

Now this you surely miscounted, you marked 49 points on the board for black, not 46 ;). Plus 2 prisoners, he has 51 against, let's say, white's 53+6.5 = 59.5. I also think black has just slightly better endgame prospects than white along the sides. So the question is: is black's prospects in the middle + the weakness of white's group together + his marginally better endgame - the value of white's sente worth at least 8.5 points? Quite possibly... Anyway, it looks like a very very close game to me.
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