Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 24 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:12 pm
by topazg
xDragon wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . 1 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . 2 O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i dont see how b refutes this and has the corner live?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | 7 5 . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 4 6 O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 3 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | 8 7 X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 6 X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . 4 5 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 3 0 O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 9 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | O X X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | 2 O X O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X O O 3 X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . 4 5 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . O 9 X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 6 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:55 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm192 Prsioner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . 1 O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


ok everything is going according to plan, i got a nice lead and i plan to keep it, 

when i look at the board im feeling great!, 
i got 3 1/2 corners, and access to the center, i got options everywhere

time to tighten up and stay focused :rambo:

i like rambo lol

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:11 pm
by xDragon
find it interesting after topaz's showing of the refutation, he now thinks he has the corner with the same move i thought of. wonder if robinz will see it

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:45 am
by topazg
I make robinz about 10 points ahead if he sees it, and about 25 points behind if he doesn't. Both leads should be largely unassailable with what's left of the game, so :b93: could be a really game deciding move.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:05 am
by Koroviev
I can barely contain my excitement. I hope he sees the move. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:23 am
by ez4u
perceval wrote:
rarely seen a game so intense :clap: ... because here we have strong players giving us "the solution" and we see them struggle and miss opportunities and then have a second chance ...
Here if i understand correctly W should have ignored and proceed with the ko
i must say i would not do much better i think this is really hard :blackeye:

I agree that this has been a great game. Both players are to be congratulated, and thanked for entertaining us so well! :tmbup:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:30 am
by Sevis
Personally, I'd still try a 3-3 invasion as black... It feels just big enough to still be able to live. After the bottom-left is settled:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm201 Prsioner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . 8 . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 9 3 4 . b O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . 7 6 O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . 0 . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . c O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O a . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


a, b and c also look fairly big.

I should count this when I have time...

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:56 am
by Dusk Eagle
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:59 am
by Sevis
Dusk Eagle:
Aren't there three at the top that threaten to kill?

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:37 am
by Chew Terr
Sevis:
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . 0 O X . . O X X X 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . a . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O 8 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.

Chew: I added to the diagram. Basically, white can kill those three stones, but black will have miai 'a' to live after 10... I think.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:16 am
by robinz
I so can't wait to read all these posts once the game is over - although it'll probably take me months to digest them :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As already discussed. My current opinion is that this seems to even work, although I'm far from certain that I've not missed something. But, as it's clearly sente, if it doesn't then it's no worse than a lost ko threat, so there's no way I'm not playing it.

That makes it twice in this game that I've made a move at the 1-2 point to give myself more effective liberties in a capturing race (move 163 was the other time) - I wonder if this is a common technique, as I've not really come across it (although I do know there is a proverb that "strange things happen at the 1-2 point"). Of course, it could be that these moves simply don't work ;-)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:33 am
by Dusk Eagle
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Why :w1: isn't a good ko threat.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . 5 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . 4 O X X X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 6 . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X O X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:09 pm
by Sevis
Dusk Eagle, Chew Terr:
Ahh, I see, thanks.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:24 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm194 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

i don't like not having sente lets see where he plays next, E18 maybe

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:35 am
by ez4u
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.


The ko is a pretty neat idea. I completely missed it. I am thinking that this may be the biggest ko threat...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X X O . . . . 3 . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X 1 X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . X X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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