Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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Gresil
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 87A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



As diagrammed at my previous move. At that time I didn't consider K11 and L10, but neither works.
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Approved.

(I think Joaz's diagrams are too easy on black but I don't have time to look at it in detail atm)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Mmmm..... sure.

Approved.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 88A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O W O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think we need to block on this side unless we're willing to sacrifice everything around J13.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 87A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X 5 X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . 4 . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . 6 X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 8 7 . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 9 . . . O . B W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O 1 O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 87A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X X X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . O 6 O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X 1 2 . O . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X 3 X . . O X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O 5 4 . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We could consider this alternative, except that 6 prevents the 'sacrifice' from becoming a seki. As it stands, if we save L10, I think we can play something like this to get seki or better. My concern is that weak white group up top, but I don't think we can stop to fix it yet.

Edit:
I did not see or expect this move by Gresil, and I prefer it to the alternative I had considered.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I'm going to do some deep reading here. It may take a few days.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

If we go with younger brother's move, the following is forced:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram #1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 3 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X 1 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O W O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


From there, we have several possibilities. None of them work. In all variations that I can find, our group gets cut off and killed, or black captures our cutting stone at N11 and leaves us with two running groups.

We can try P12 for our first move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . 6 . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 4 . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O 3 . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...or we can try the safer P13:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O 3 2 0 . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O 7 6 5 8 . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 3a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 4 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O 3 . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . 6 . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 3b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . 6 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 3 7 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O 4 . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 5 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 1 . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We can try P14:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 3 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O 5 O 8 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X 4 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . 7 . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



There are numerous variations, more than I can show here, but the following themes repeat:
White 'a' is always answered with black 'b'
The cut at 'c' is a major problem for white. It threatens to kill westward or connect eastward.
The marked black stones run west, then either escape southward or connect to friends to the north
When the marked black stones run east, the cuttingpoint at 'd' becomes the beginning of a ladder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram #5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X b . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O a . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O c . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O B O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O B B . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X W . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O d . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I think that I have to change younger brother's move, but the alternative is just as problematic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram #6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . C . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O 2 O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The one possible saving grace is that it is way more complicated, and there may be a winning tesuji around F12.
But overall, I am very sceptical of white's chances of winning this game.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by schilds »

Not for players:
Why is 2 'forced' in Joaz's diagram 1?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Going the other way looks no better. Shapenaji presumably has something figured out but I don't know which way it is. If I guess wrong this way, it costs us three points when he changes it. If I guess wrong the other way, we lose two points when I change it, and another two points when he changes it back.
I'm just doing damage control in ignorance, with nothing but simple math to guide me. :roll:
3<4, therefore...
...I approve.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Approved
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 89A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still following my prediction earlier.
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Of course.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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Violence
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Approved.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 90A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X W . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll refrain from doing deep analysis, and simply say, if we weren't going to cut, we wouldn't have pushed, or peeped for that matter.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Lord Raglan says that I must attack. Therefore...


I approve.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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shapenaji
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Approved
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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