Starcraft II

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Re: Starcraft II

Post by MountainGo »

Aphelion wrote:While its true that 3 workers / patch (24 workers per base) saturates it, thats beside the point. You never want to stop worker production even at oversaturation, because you want to be ready for when you expand. Therefore when I am at one base, I don't stop at 24 probes. I keep making so that I can saturate my second base immediately when I do expand.

While there are exceptions to this rule (such as when you need to cut troops for a timing push or you are behind and need to do a lot of damage immediately), that is advanced play. Its similar to the "empty triangle" rule in Go. There are situations where cutting workers maybe good, but if you need to ask, don't do it. When the time comes that you can get an edge in your play by cutting workers at specific times, you won't need to ask such a question.
Very true. I tend to take this idea for granted (why on Earth wouldn't you want something that pays for itself in about a minute?), but most players up to Gold league seemingly don't, and it cripples them. It's like playing Monopoly and just not buying more than a couple properties. It makes no sense, and you will auto-lose to anyone who understands that.

The best use of the knowledge of mining efficiency is probably for deciding how to distribute your workers among multiple bases, especially if one is vulnerable or far away. For example, you might choose not to put any Drones on a new Hatchery right away if the existing ones don't have more than 16 on minerals each. Other than that, it just helps to know when to stop making workers in the very late game when you start getting 80+ of them (although at that point, players start to get 200/200 armies, so you're probably more concerned with leaving enough food for your attack units).
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by MountainGo »

Tooveli wrote:More Spoiler (Including specific game comments)

I found it odd that the least recommended game on TL was the Kulas Ravine game which I would have said was by far the best. I thought the roaches were going to move out of sight of the drop ship and fruit dealer would miss it until I realised that they were moving out of its way so it wouldn't see them and they could come in and pincer the drop (which would be at the far back of the ledge due to the spine crawler). As I was being amazed by this, fruit dealer had also prepared a neat way to win the game there and then.
I definitely agree with this. Artosis made some remark about how genius it was to cover the small high-ground area with Spine Crawlers on one side and Roaches on the other, but I can't help but wonder if it's just a matter of not enough players really taking the time to study each map and measure all the distances and think about all the possibilities. In particular, I'm in love with the idea for Zerg of going for a gold mineral location as the first expansion on maps that allow it in order to better take advantage of Zerg's normal practice of expanding quickly. If the supposed "natural" is already dangerous anyway, why the heck not?

But I've got to say that my favorite game was the first one, on Delta Quadrant, where neither player had any clever "ideas". It was just amazing standard play from Fruit Dealer beating good standard play from Hope Torture. After all the frustration in the community about Zerg being an impotent race, it was so refreshing for me to be able to look once again at a Zerg army and fear its pulsating power, ready at any moment to close in on you and explode all over your face with acid and spines and claws.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by ketchup »

Araban wrote:Regarding the GSL Final:
Wow, just wow. I didn't get a chance to watch the whole set (fell asleep one game short), but the games I did watch really tempts me to consider playing Z seriously. Oddly, I'd have to say my favorite game was the one I couldn't watch and had to watch a re-stream of, the 5th game on Scraps. It was just sick that Cool could play a build that's almost insta-loss to proxy reapers and still hold it together, even if building time increased by 5 seconds. There were some cute tactics like using the smoke to bait the reapers that was nice as well. Using the mutas to contain the terran while macroing up like MAD and then unleashing a roflstomp was a sight to behold. A fruit dealer definitely deserved the crown :).
Image


I WISH Zerg was seriously that easy to play/ adapt to for me. I think a big part is being able to predict what your opponent will be doing. Which, without game experience, will be SO difficult. In this case, I think if the opponent wasn't as good as he was, a lot of his counters would not have worked as well as they did. Then again, a general look at what strategies FruitDealer used WILL translate over pretty well. For example, his expansion timings, and overall play style WILL be fun to try to imitate. Also, his ultralisk build order is awesome. All the timings would be nice to learn. Although it's amazing how much Terran can support himself off two base, while Zerg has to expand to four/five before it's comfortable.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Aphelion »

Li Kao wrote:
Aphelion wrote:Ahh I see. Still, you should always be "looking to expand", so isn't that moot? :)

When you have a few bases your old bases run out of minerals about as fast as you expand to new ones. And you don't want to get too many workers due to the supply limit. So you'll stop around 70 or so.


If you have the APM to build workers at that point in game you also don't need to ask this question :)
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

On the GSL final:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who liked the Kulas Ravine game. It was short, to be sure, and HopeTorture kinda got crushed, but Fruit Dealer's play was so thoughtful. He had completely planned out in advance a way to completely nullify that particular map advantage with a minimal amount of resources; 3 roaches, a spine crawler and an overlord. My thought was "well, I guess this is joseki for this position now".

HopeTorture was just completely agog, and then BLAM, nydus. Very satisfying to the go playing part of me.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

HD videos of the finals were posted on Youtube as well for those who need that quality upgrade here. Also, these two fans were hilarious.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by flOvermind »

fwiffo wrote:On the GSL final:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who liked the Kulas Ravine game. It was short, to be sure, and HopeTorture kinda got crushed, but Fruit Dealer's play was so thoughtful. He had completely planned out in advance a way to completely nullify that particular map advantage with a minimal amount of resources; 3 roaches, a spine crawler and an overlord. My thought was "well, I guess this is joseki for this position now".

HopeTorture was just completely agog, and then BLAM, nydus. Very satisfying to the go playing part of me.


Yes, that game was great. Even the commentators were surprised by that nydus worm ;)
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Suji »

All the games were great. Zerg completely dominated that match. I didn't think that Zerg, could hold their own with all the chatter about Zerg being the weakest out of the three races.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

Anybody want to put together a team for Day[9]'s Funday Monday?

In case you missed tonight's episode, this week's theme is massing single units in 3v3 and 4v4 games. Each player on the Funday Monday team has to announce to both teams at the beginning of the game a single unit they're going to create for the entire game. E.g. you say "immortals!" and then all you can make all game is immortals. There are exceptions for workers of course, certain utility units (e.g. queens for Zerg, observers for Protoss), and for units which turn into the target unit (e.g. you are allowed to make zerglings to produce banelings, templar to produce archons, etc.)
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

fwiffo wrote:Anybody want to put together a team for Day[9]'s Funday Monday?

In case you missed tonight's episode, this week's theme is massing single units in 3v3 and 4v4 games. Each player on the Funday Monday team has to announce to both teams at the beginning of the game a single unit they're going to create for the entire game. E.g. you say "immortals!" and then all you can make all game is immortals. There are exceptions for workers of course, certain utility units (e.g. queens for Zerg, observers for Protoss), and for units which turn into the target unit (e.g. you are allowed to make zerglings to produce banelings, templar to produce archons, etc.)

This sounds fun and I'd be interested :). Though would it be too cheap for me to just call Stalkers? :P
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

Well, the goal is to get on the show, so choosing a good, versatile unit like stalkers or marines or something would be kinda boring. Obviously the team wants to pick a balanced combination, so you don't immediately just die, but ideally it would be something funny. Like a four person team going mothership+baneling+archon+colossus.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Tooveli »

I'd be up for it if someone could lend me a guest pass to the US server. Unless there's also some European players that want to give it a try.

Mass sentry ftw.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

Tooveli wrote:Mass sentry ftw.

Dangitttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt....this was so what I had in mind :(.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

Sharing resources is going to be more important than usual. Like, if you're going to go mass sentry, you'll have to get gas from and dump minerals to your teammate who is going mass zergling. And the guy going mothership won't be able to build any units so they'll have to dump off their extra resources to everybody.

I actually feel like doing immortals or maybe archons.

I'm getting on battle.net tonight. Let's do this!
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

fwiffo wrote:I actually feel like doing immortals or maybe archons.

I actually won against a 1200 Z player a while ago by going mass Archons (well, okay...it wasn't just Archons, I transitioned into it from lots and stalkers, then transitioned back out in the late game back to stalkers). I think it was way more effective than usual because he tried to ambush me with burrowed roaches and Archons give a bit of splash damage which helped a lot. Furthermore, they do extra damage against biological units and with the 3 or so HTs I didn't merge, storming was also more effective than usual. Regardless, I think Archons get way too much flak than they deserve :(.

Mass immortals sounds baller.
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