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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:21 pm
by EdLee
Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote: (2 can't be cut off):
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$
What's your sequence after
?
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:35 pm
by EdLee
Hmm,
=
is interesting, but seems to have some shape problems:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
How about
instead ?
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:02 pm
by Uberdude
EdLee wrote: Hmm,
=
is interesting, but seems to have some shape problems:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
How about
instead ?
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Yeah, if white wants to play in that corner rather than answer the approach I prefer the press, though white does have this clamp:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Black could simply connect and white has lots of cuts, or there is this technique below. White has no good move after 5 so would have to play 4 at
a and trade the corner for thickness. Maybe it's better for black to play 3 first but then white won't clamp.
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: Re:
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:06 am
by jeromie
EdLee wrote: Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote: (2 can't be cut off):
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$
What's your sequence after
?
When I wrote that I saw this:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
And this (black can cut off the stone if he gives up the right side and corner, but I didn't think he would. Looking at the result more closely, 6 at 7 leaves black with two decently strong outside groups while white has a relatively small corner, so it's probably not bad for black.:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
But missed this, which does cut it off and isn't good for white. I think the bottom can still live, but it will likely be enclosed and pressed down, and black can probably make big profit by attacking the T shaped group.:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
It seems a silly oversight in retrospect.
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:46 am
by awef
$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
I think my previous move, Black 15, was bad. Now jermoie can harass me and build nice thickness. Playing Black 17 originally would have been better. A lot can happen here because my stones are so thin, but I've been running through variations starting with a white move in between black 15 and 17, e.g.,
$$Wcm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
I think I can manage on the left side but I'll be worried about his thickness in the upper left, my group in the top right is beginning to feel shut-off.
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:43 pm
by EdLee
awef wrote: Now jermoie can harass me and build nice thickness.
(
For beginners. )
Very common trap around these levels: to be confused
by these nebulous terms: thickness, influence, or — magic.
“Now jermoie can harass me and build nice
magic .”
First reaction: “What magic?! What are you talking about??
”
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:51 am
by jeromie
$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
This should help me develop a very strong wall, and I still have chance to get part of the corner territory, too.
I almost played the descent to C13 to try and kill the C15 stone, but as far as I can read it doesn't work. (I also tried the diagonal to C14, but it doesn't fare any better.)
$$Wc19
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc19
There are quite a few possible variations, but all of them I tried end up with white trying to protect two weak groups and letting black escape into the center or connect with the C12 stone. I desperately wanted it to work (and the race is close enough I almost convinced myself it does), but every variation I tried ended up badly.
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:25 am
by EdLee
Hi jeromie,
jeromie wrote:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WCan you name one problem with
?
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:58 am
by jeromie
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:11 pm
by awef
$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Re:
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:50 pm
by EdLee
Hi jeromie,
jeromie wrote:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WBlack can peep at the tiger's mouth to get free moves that help build a strong outside wall.
Of course, if it didn't kill the corner the shapes were disastrous for white (and even if it did black could get a lot of outside profit).
- Yes, to the peeps; however...
- No, to the strong wall.
- Not necessarily, to the disastrous shape.
- No, to a lot of outside profit.
Can you name another problem with
? ( Still very local. )
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:14 pm
by EdLee
$$m11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$m11(
For beginners. )
awef wrote: I think White let me off easy. It seems he basically wasted a move just now.
I think W's local shape is quite good, and
(a) now is a big move.
awef wrote: this move looks like it'll do the trick good enough.
Actually,
in relation to
and
makes a "double large keima" —
this is a common shape at these levels, and it's not a very good combination.
Even if
was simply one line lower, at (b), it's better.
awef wrote: Maybe I should look for better than good enough but at the same time I can't labor on every move.
Quite strange.
awef wrote: I think my stones on the left side are over concentrated and working inefficiently and I think that it all started with black 15.
- No, to over concentrated. It's the opposite:
-
-
is a little thin.
- For working inefficiently, the shape is not good,
but probably not what awef has in mind.
- For
, of course, locally the approach is no problem at all;
the question is the tenuki from
.
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:36 pm
by EdLee
Hi awef,
awef wrote: Maybe I should look for better than good enough but at the same time I can't labor on every move.
How do you decide which moves to "labor on" ?
What are your criterias for moves worth the labor and those which aren't ?
For a real-time game on the clock, time management is an issue.
But this game has a lot more time, so yours is an interesting mentality.
Re: #240 awef vs jeromie
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:11 pm
by jeromie
$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:17 pm
by EdLee
jeromie wrote: C13 is really, really big, but it leaves me over concentrated
Hmm, I think C13 is bigger.
Both players seem to have some misunderstanding of what over-concentrated means.
?
= 
is interesting, but seems to have some shape problems:
instead ?
”
?
(a) now is a big move.
in relation to 
and 
makes a "double large keima" —
.