Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:54 am**

I think that R6 is a quite normal move, and after the peep, White's stones are not any more overconcentrated than Black's (who would reposition his stones to two ikken tobi now, wouldn't he?).

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:05 am**

Harleqin wrote:I think that R6 is a quite normal move, and after the peep, White's stones are not any more overconcentrated than Black's (who would reposition his stones to two ikken tobi now, wouldn't he?).

R6 is a normal move. i dont see anything wrong with that exchange.
i think if the move has intent, meaning, purpose then it is usually normal.
i see why black exchanges R6,S6 (to cover his weakness in sente)
and i dont think it is aji keshi. and i dont see anything wrong with that exchange.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:53 am**

My take:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 6 5 , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can see Black being aware of this, and choosing to peep to fix this weakness. However, I'm not keen on it. Normally the the two point jump as far as I can remember is for the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . # . 2 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where the marked stone can be exchanged for the corner, and P6 becomes a useful reducing stone. By peeping, I think Black makes this annoying:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it feels like Black has left the possibility for White to get a big corner while overconcentrating him. Alternative moves like "a" for Black are also gone now White has connected his stones. I'd probably have counter-pincered immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:16 am**

Magicwand wrote:
Harleqin wrote:I think that R6 is a quite normal move, and after the peep, White's stones are not any more overconcentrated than Black's (who would reposition his stones to two ikken tobi now, wouldn't he?).

R6 is a normal move. i dont see anything wrong with that exchange.
i think if the move has intent, meaning, purpose then it is usually normal.
i see why black exchanges R6,S6 (to cover his weakness in sente)
and i dont think it is aji keshi. and i dont see anything wrong with that exchange.

Uhh...did you have a typo in those coordinates? Perhaps you meant Q5 instead of R6, and R5 instead of S6?

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:18 am**

Harleqin wrote:I think that R6 is a quite normal move...

Kogo wrote:R6?? Never heard of it...

Ishida wrote:Nor me. R7 is joseki.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:22 am**

I agree that I'm not keen on R6 - I've read out a number of bits and bobs from my counter pincer and I'm happy with most of them - maybe R7 is normal because staying ahead is too important?

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:24 am**

My database says that pros never play R6 in that position.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:40 pm**

Heh, I looked it up at gobase, and with the low pincer, R6 is actually never played. I do not know the reason. With the pincer high, it is sometimes played when the right side is not very interesting. I do not understand why this makes a difference.

By the way, I think that the cut should be like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The butting feels clumsy.

Anyway, I guess that the pincer position has some influence on the shape after this cut.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:11 pm**

Harleqin wrote:Heh, I looked it up at gobase, and with the low pincer, R6 is actually never played. I do not know the reason. With the pincer high, it is sometimes played when the right side is not very interesting. I do not understand why this makes a difference.

I think it makes a difference because the low pincer leaves less room for eyes to the west, so an eventual R3 is likely to acquire eye space to the east, leading to something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position, again R6 looks too close:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , W W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and R7 looks much better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , W W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if the pincer is high, black is more likely to have played M2, and might end up like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now R6 looks reasonable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and R7 feels like a bit of a stretch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:30 pm**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I think it makes a difference because the low pincer leaves less room for eyes to the west, so an eventual R3 is likely to acquire eye space to the east,

I cannot follow this argument. Black just having the option not to make White overconcentrated would not entice him to let go of this opportunity, would it?

Anyway, I think that White has some good options where the R6 stone does not look so bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 8 6 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X 4 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here,

protects the cut after Black captures :w2:

. Note how :bc:

looks a lot less meaningful.

But if the pincer is high, black is more likely to have played M2, and might end up like this

$$Bc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . 3 , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that White would not even play S3, but cut immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . 4 , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:54 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the stretch to slight overconcentration issue for White is not that big of a deal. I still stand by this as the point that makes White uncomfortable about the one point jump. If Black had only made a one point jump, White's move would be very reasonable, and I think a large part of that is that Black can only play this move with this situation after a two point jump. It's the equivalent of a capping attack to make the White group seal in small in the corner, or run out and help Black develop points on the RHS

Posted: **Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:04 am**

Since the peep at Q5 is a normal move even when white has made the two point jump to R7, I don't think it can be criticized here. White's position is certainly no better for it. Playing R6 created an immediate threat to cut with P5, unlike R7, so playing the peep immediately, rather than later (as is normal with R7), seems like a sensible idea. It is definitely more urgent now.

P6 in itself, in this situation, can indeed be considered dubious, as the counter pincer is less attractive due to white having the lower left corner.

Posted: **Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:45 am**

Gobase shows 0 hits for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . , O . . | $$ O . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------[/go]

It is common with the high pincer, though. My guess is that, with the high pincer, Black's corner eye shape is not so critical, and he can play the peep which makes the outside stone stronger than the 3-3 attachment. The corner attachment is nevertheless also played frequently. With the low pincer, Black has no other place for settling than the corner, so the corner attachment takes precedence.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 am**

OK, the next situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I played :w1:

. Would 'a' perhaps have been better?

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:35 am**

I don't think so - it looks more crude than :w1:

- I really like this move

Life In 19x19

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