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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:38 pm
by schawipp
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
As my invasion ended in gote, a move like
is not a big surprise. The stage of moyo building contest is finally over
. Let's contemplate over the current situation - My invasion is now connected and alive, however I think I have not made the most possible of it. As a result, the size of the white upper left side shrinked from around 30 to around 15 points, while my invasion gets some 5 points. What might be more important though: The invasion is connected to the D6 group with its weak point F6. Therefore, this group is now considerably stronger and even, if the white invasion escapes towards left direction, I do not have to fear that this group can get under severe attack.
The white territory can now be divided into 15 points lower left (quite secure), 15 points upper left corner (even more secure), 20 points upper left side (maybe reducable later) and another 12 points at upper side between K and N line (can be still invaded at M17). Including komi that's 68.5.
Black can get 20-30 points at upper right side+corner (depending whether white gets R17 or not), single-digit points from left side invasion and some potential of getting points in the center, which I cannot reasonably judge. If black e. g. gets the point K9, the box E5-J8 would amount 20 points. There are still more possible points at lower right side/corner thus the game seems still close.
There is quite little potential on lower side due to the open end F2, therefore I don't want to answer
with the usual move O4. I also don't want to attach at Q5 which would make the invasion stronger. Therefore I secure the corner with R5 (giving another 12-15 points) and wait for white's further plans. One of the rather annoying moves would be
on P9. However I am then playing Q7 which connects R9 and white will get busy not being separated.
Since white would in any case need further resources to make life for or connect the invasion, it would be a chance to further strengthen the center and either secure more territory somewhere or aim for invasions towards upper / upper-left direction.
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:46 pm
by skydyr
schawipp wrote: $$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
My gut feeling is that
can't be right, because if black had played there first, white would have been happy to play
as a reduction, but now it's as if black tenukied. I'd rather take O4, except that the bottom is small because of F2. Perhaps attaching to the right of
would have been better?
On the other hand, maybe this is making the best of a bad situation.
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:42 pm
by moyoaji
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
These are the two main moves that I am debating between. I like the cap, but I wonder if perhaps I can strengthen my stone with this attachment. I don't want to be heavy, though. And I've already undercut the bottom, so damage there will not be that severe.
I'll probably cap. We'll see. I have some more reading to do...
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:18 pm
by moyoaji
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:20 pm
by schawipp
Sorry for the delay, this year started quite busy so far...
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
The show must go on. My original thought of defending around R7 or Q7 is too passive. White can only destroy 6-7 points in that area, and my lower right corner with its enclosure is not really in danger.
If I omit Q11 white can play Q10 and push further:
$$Wcm30 This would be rather terrible for b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30 This would be rather terrible for b
After
on Q11, white still has to think what to do further with P9/P5, while for black the invasion M17 starts becoming interesting.
Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:50 pm
by EdLee
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:02 am
by Loons
skydyr wrote:
schawipp wrote: $$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
My gut feeling is that
can't be right, because if black had played there first, white would have been happy to play
as a reduction, but now it's as if black tenukied. I'd rather take O4, except that the bottom is small because of F2. Perhaps attaching to the right of
would have been better?
On the other hand, maybe this is making the best of a bad situation.
I feel like it's making the best of a bad situation and
was a mistake. Black has to be losing because of E9, but I feel white's trying to be too stylish.
after taking the time to play F2? If anything white's vindicating K4. Further, swapping the order of
&
, black's allowed to tenuki, so...
EdLee wrote:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
P5 starts feeling too resourceful to me after your cap.
Moyoaji knew my personal poison:
$$Bc1 Come at me
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc1 Come at me
Any move white makes is a concession to P5 P9 bad shape.
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:34 am
by EdLee
Loons, how about:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:56 am
by skydyr
Loons wrote: skydyr wrote: schawipp wrote: $$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
My gut feeling is that
can't be right, because if black had played there first, white would have been happy to play
as a reduction, but now it's as if black tenukied. I'd rather take O4, except that the bottom is small because of F2. Perhaps attaching to the right of
would have been better?
On the other hand, maybe this is making the best of a bad situation.
I feel like it's making the best of a bad situation and
was a mistake. Black has to be losing because of E9, but I feel white's trying to be too stylish.
after taking the time to play F2? If anything white's vindicating K4. Further, swapping the order of
&
, black's allowed to tenuki, so...
What would you have preferred for
?
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:46 am
by Loons
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:13 pm
by moyoaji
Hello. Sorry schawipp, I missed your response because of all these other posts pushing this to the next page.
On the plus side though, I look forward to reading these notes. It should be helpful in analyzing this position, which I think is pretty important in the development of the game.
Let play resume!
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
So why invade now? Because I feel black has made a statement with this last move. That statement is: I want the upper right. Whenever an opponent makes that sort of a statement, it seems fair to me to ask them back: "how much do you really want this part of the board?"
As for my other two stones, I have not abandoned them. This sequence should end in sente if black chooses the more common joseki.
$$Wcm1 Marked stones are 11 and 12.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Marked stones are 11 and 12.
If black chooses to take sente with the other joseki, then my result on the top side will be phenomenal.
$$Wcm1 So much top potential... :o
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 So much top potential... :o
Two corners? A wall facing the top? A high stone in between? That would mean I have all but solid points across the entire top of the board. More than worth sente.
So, why do I feel comfortable with this tenuki? Apart from the great likelihood of maintaining sente, I feel my stones have a sort of miai between connecting and one of them living independently. So let's say black comes back to the situation after the second joseki option and tries to split. If he splits I have many possible options. These are the two I'm looking at most seriously.
$$Bcm1 I can make shape on the bottom.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 I can make shape on the bottom.$$Bcm1 I can try to keep connected
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 I can try to keep connected
More reading is required, as always. Some day I wonder if I'll ever be able to stop reading in go. Then I realize that that's like saying "I wonder if someday in my life I can stop breathing." That does happen, but it happens when life is over. And I don't want my go career to die anytime soon.
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:53 pm
by Bill Spight
You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din!
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:39 am
by skydyr
moyoaji wrote:
If black chooses to take sente with the other joseki, then my result on the top side will be phenomenal.
$$Wcm1 So much top potential... :o
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 So much top potential... :o
Two corners? A wall facing the top? A high stone in between? That would mean I have all but solid points across the entire top of the board. More than worth sente.
So, why do I feel comfortable with this tenuki? Apart from the great likelihood of maintaining sente, I feel my stones have a sort of miai between connecting and one of them living independently. So let's say black comes back to the situation after the second joseki option and tries to split. If he splits I have many possible options. These are the two I'm looking at most seriously.
This may or may not be possible with very careful and deep reading, but my instinct screams that white is giving up whatever local advantage he had in the lower right in order to take 10-15 points because black might make territory somewhere. In addition, if black pressures the white floating stones in sente from the bottom, it should be relatively easy to end the attack with a move to consolidate the entire bottom.
Suffice to say I remain entirely unconvinced that A, which I've inserted into the quoted diagram, is black's best attack.
Everyone felt white was ahead previously. Why play in such a risky manner?
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:59 pm
by schawipp
Yep, I'm also curious about all these comments. And BTW we cracked 2k views during last moves. Even if I'm not quite confident with my play, this is at least something
$$Wcm30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm30
is another hit against my count, however it should end in gote.
I'm expecting a sequence like this:
$$Wcm36
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm36
Afterwards I have to decide what to do with the invasion. Since it's already late, I postpone this decision right now.
There is another possible sequence:
$$Wcm36
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm36
White undermines my upper right position, however I threaten to invade more deeply into his top side. I would have to do it in a way that white doesn't get too much outside strength (in order to not support his invasion too much). I'm not sure if this is feasible but the good news is that I can decide about it later
Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:38 pm
by skydyr
schawipp wrote:
There is another possible sequence:
$$Wcm36
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm36
White undermines my upper right position, however I threaten to invade more deeply into his top side. I would have to do it in a way that white doesn't get too much outside strength (in order to not support his invasion too much). I'm not sure if this is feasible but the good news is that I can decide about it later
After
(added to the quoted diagram) it's not very clear what black got, aside from overconcentrated. White, on the other hand, just got a corner and ruined black's side to some degree. Whether white should play this right away is open to question, but I suspect that white could hold on to sente long enough to help his central group some and then follow up with it.
Last, but not least, now that we've got both players paranoid, I encourage everyone to pour on the commentary, relevant or not. We don't want them getting complacent
is not a big surprise. The stage of moyo building contest is finally over 
. Let's contemplate over the current situation - My invasion is now connected and alive, however I think I have not made the most possible of it. As a result, the size of the white upper left side shrinked from around 30 to around 15 points, while my invasion gets some 5 points. What might be more important though: The invasion is connected to the D6 group with its weak point F6. Therefore, this group is now considerably stronger and even, if the white invasion escapes towards left direction, I do not have to fear that this group can get under severe attack. 
on P9. However I am then playing Q7 which connects R9 and white will get busy not being separated. 
can't be right, because if black had played there first, white would have been happy to play 
on Q11, white still has to think what to do further with P9/P5, while for black the invasion M17 starts becoming interesting.
On the plus side though, I look forward to reading these notes. It should be helpful in analyzing this position, which I think is pretty important in the development of the game. 
is another hit against my count, however it should end in gote. 
(added to the quoted diagram) it's not very clear what black got, aside from overconcentrated. White, on the other hand, just got a corner and ruined black's side to some degree. Whether white should play this right away is open to question, but I suspect that white could hold on to sente long enough to help his central group some and then follow up with it.