#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:32 pm

Hi, Ed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . 2 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

IMO, making White strong here does not make him overcrowded.

Also:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

is small. Because of the strength of the Black corner, White should not run any time soon.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:41 pm

Hi Bill

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:28 am

EdLee wrote:Hi Bill
Bill Spight wrote: is small. Because of the strength of the Black corner, White should not run any time soon.
Thanks. So if the Black corner group was unsettled and would've changed B's weakness into strength, then it'd be a different story.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:14 am

There are so many comments that I almost missed Joaz's move! Looking forward to learning a ton after the game ends.

Here are the three lines I'm looking at, in their rough ranking order right now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Option 1 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . c . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . a . X 3 . . | $$ | . . X . . . d . . e . . . O 8 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The key here is where Black would go next. (A-D seem the likely candidates.) A is the normal shape move, but I think I would be happy to play E and make Black overconcentrated? I might even play E if Black plays B, hoping to end in sente to come back to R7. But what happens if Black comes straight to C or D?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Option 2 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . 2 . X 5 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 O 4 . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know why I'm so fascinated with double approaches lately, but it looks like another option here. If Black plays this line, I end in sente more easily, and can come back to help my G5 stones. However, as we saw earlier, these are variations that I don't know very well and I suspect there is some good resistance that Black could put up if I look harder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Option 3 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e . d . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 c x . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . a b . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wrote earlier that this might be the time to jump out and fight against the pincer. Because Black chose a high pincer, I'm less inclined to take this route. If we play out the A-F sequence, I do get some compensation (in the form of F), but I could also easily end up trying to manage 2 running groups, while Black builds points on both sides.

I want to think about this some more and see if I can get a bit more clarity around the later developments from each of these and ways Black might resist.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After playing out some more variations, I'm still inclined to go with this plan. It means definitively that I only have one weak group to worry about, and it gives me at least some cash.

Option 3 (the jump) was pretty quickly rejected, as I never really felt like I got much out of attacking the :b14:

stone. That's the advantage he gets from playing high. (The advantage I get is that it remains easier for me to settle the G5 stones later.)

As for Option 2 (the double approach), I rejected it both because of the uncertainty around some of these variations, and certain variations where I still end up with two unsettled groups. There are fewer ways things can go wrong with my move.

As for how I expect Black to finish this joseki, I think it will probably be the knight's move jump. I'll then face a tricky decision about whether to respond at R7, or try to cash in the C6 aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 1 . . . . . . . B . a . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Assuming Black responds at :b2:

, I can come back to A, and the best Black has locally is something around B. That gives Black some cash on both sides, but both groups feel slightly inefficient to me. The right Black group looks a bit overconcentrated (especially if I play K3), and after :b2:

, I think Black would rather that his C3 stone were at least at D3. I'll then need to decide if I think I can tenuki to the top, or if I need another move to help G5. At first glance, tenuki seems right, as there isn't much more profit Black can build here.

Of course, Black might ignore :w1:

, but then I've rescued the C6 stone, which leads to its own profit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc I'll need to fix X at some point; Reductions at A and B $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 9 5 . 1 . . . a . . . B 4 2 . . | $$ | . . O 8 . x . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . 7 . . . . b . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hopefully this is enough to compensate for the extra influence Black built along the right.

If I go for the cash with R7, it also still seems playable, as I don't think there is anything *too* severe that Black can do to the G5 stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . b . . . . . B . 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O 5 4 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . c . . a . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can still run with B, or use A/C to live locally. In exchange for :w1:

, Black got more points on the left, but O3 could come back to bite him here.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:38 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Multiple triggers: ( I'm assuming that my opponent knows this joseki as well as I do, so there is no point in hiding it )

@Amatterof: I'll accept any or all of this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 6 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In other words...
If you play 1, I'll play 2,
then if you play 3, I'll play 4,
then if you play 5, I'll play 6
then if you play 7, I'll play 8.

( You'll have to re-number after you choose )

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:58 am

FWIW, I did consider this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get a lot on the left, but he gets a comfortable and profitable play around 'a', and he has vicious aji at 'b'.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:13 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:FWIW, I did consider this:
$$B
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Speaking of mis-clicks, :w4:

?

( For beginners. )
White cannot resist with :w6:

-- Black has miai of (a) and (b) --
locally, White collapses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 6 a . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . 5 O 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X 7 8 . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O b . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White can only retreat to :w2:

; after

, White has 2 cuts (c) and (d):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 4 d . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . W 3 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe the local follow-up :w1:

is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:23 pm

Trigger accepted.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm17 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 6 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My predictions are at least starting to get better. Looking at it again, there are still only two choices, R7 and G7 (my move).

The main deciding factor for me was the idea of trying to get the maximum value out of all of my stones. If I play R7, then C6 starts becoming less and less useful as Black attacks the G5 stones. Eventually, it becomes not much better than a pass. If I play this way, I either (1) get G7 in exchange for C6 or (2) rescue C6. Either way, it's better than letting it die off slowly after Black plays G6.

I expect that no matter what Black's plans are, he will play R7 next. It's basically a 100% sente move against the corner. The more important question is whether he'll follow it up, or come back to kill C6.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 Will Black choose A or B? $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . a . . O . . . . . . . X b 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . d . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black plays A, then I have my choice of clamping at C to get out along the right, or capping around D to prevent Black from making too many points in this area. I'd probably play around D as it continues to help my G5 stones, gets additional value out of O3, and leaves Black only the play at B in gote later. If D is in fact sente because of O3, even better.

If Black plays B, however, things start to get interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . O . . . . . . . X 3 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . c . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . b . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I spent a lot of time looking at variations here, and although a lot of different things can happen, White always seems to do fairly well on the left. I think Black's most powerful move is to play A. White can come to B, but the corner should live. Nonetheless, I should end up with sente to either fix the defect at C if necessary, or, if I'm lucky, approach the top.

Either way, I'm hoping the board should simplify enough after this sequence that I can evaluate what sort of mess I'm in. Counting has always been one of my weakest points, and I'm hoping to get some good practice in this game.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:15 pm

amatterof wrote:
$$Bm26 Will Black choose A or B?
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . O . . . . . . . X b 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm26 Will Black choose A or B? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . O . . . . . . . X b 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

(b) feels too small, too slow, to me.

If this continuation, :bc:

is light:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B tenuki $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X 4 B . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O O . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm having second thoughts about C6/C9. I was previously concerned about him activating C6, but if he does, he does not accomplish much. I just make a modest 2-space extention to C12, and C6 is still not safe. It is still a target. So he would have to make a nearly dame move to save it, giving me sente yet again.

In other words, in return for abandoning my lower left side territory, I get two sente moves. Let's see what I can do with them.

The first possibility is obviously R7, simply because I recall that the joseki books say that he should do it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . C . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . a . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He now has a serious tactical weaknesses around 'a'. If I play there, it doesn't kill, but it reduces him to a pittance in sente while I get influence. Then I can use my second sente move to take K16, with a framework to build a huge game-winning moyo on the right.

I like that.

The other possibility is that he defends the corner - probably with S6. Then I can go into the above diagram with much the same dynamics on the right side, except he will be able to invade underneath along the S-file, and I will have better aji on the left.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:32 pm

There were two sets of hidden text in your prior post. Was one meant to be a trigger? In any case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 7 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As I said, this is pretty much forced. Next we see what Black's actual plan is.

A note for kyus: I used to play the hane in this shape all the time, but now (I think) I know that this is better shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . B W . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The reason is (1) if White plays the hane, then A is sente for Black, and allows him to close of the side; and (2) White's only follow-up is the second line crawl at A. Compare these with the descent where (1) Black closing off the side is gote, and (2) White's follow-up is a 2nd line-jump, or maybe a 3rd line clamp if Black tenukis.

I'm sure Ed, Bill, or Uberdude will correct me if I'm wrong.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:52 pm

@amatterof:

Correction as requested

: the hane achieves little other than strengthening black as he has this sente followup if you then tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . B W . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X 4 3 . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O 6 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:59 pm

@Joaz

Joaz Banbeck wrote:The first possibility is obviously R7, simply because I recall that the joseki books say that he should do it.

$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . C . . . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . C . . . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . a . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He now has a serious tactical weaknesses around 'a'. If I play there, it doesn't kill, but it reduces him to a pittance in sente while I get influence.

Errrrr 'a'? Better to capture a stone in sente: (unless you are strong enough around to handle the cuts/let him out a bit but can still kill with 'a')

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . C . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . X 1 2 . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , X . . . . X O 4 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also I don't think joseki books will say he must always play r7, but that it is often a good move, and a very big reverse sente, but other moves may be bigger. (I have played that move and been told it was a mistake by a 9p because other things were bigger.)

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:22 pm

amatterof wrote:There were two sets of hidden text in your prior post. Was one meant to be a trigger?

Sorry about the confusion. They were both comments to the observers, sort of a 'before' and 'after'.

Life In 19x19

#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re:

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck