Life In 19x19

Bantari wrote:...
No offense, but...

Judging by people I have taught/worked with, in Go and other disciplines, this constant need to visible validation stems from the lack of inner strength and self-confidence...

This could be the case. I don't take offense to it.

Bantari wrote:Examples? Sure:
1) I can gain at least 2 stones by playing in a different club (yes, this is how messed up the ranks are, which is another reason not to take them seriously). I remember, as a 4d I once played in another club with a guy who was 1d - and gave him 9 handi and beat him. So I made progress... I was 9d!! Yuppie!
2) I can lose or gain rank by switching servers (or countries, or whatever)

I agree that when you move to a different set of people, the scale is different. A 1d at my club may not be the same as a 1d at your club. I guess that it is a relative measure. But if I stay at one particular club, and get beat by a guy at 5 stones constantly, and then later can beat him with 3 stones, then I can see that some progress has been made.

It is this type of indicator that makes me feel that progress has been made.

Bantari wrote:3) Look at all the escapers out there - I bet that the main motivator for their escaping is tied to too much worry about their rank.
etc...

That could be the case. I am not an escaper, but worry about rank could certainly contribute to the escaping problem. There are other ways to deal with escapers, though. One way is the way that wins and losses are enforced on the server.

Bantari wrote:There is another side to your statement above. And it is: What makes Go so inferior to other stuff in your mind?
Consider other disciplines. You learn math, there is no rank in math, do you still know you are learning? Same with almost everything you learn, including languages, cooking, manners, etc. Sure, there is some validation, but no rank. In Go there is also validation which is separate from rank if you look for it.

Why do you so desperately need rank in Go to have confidence, while I assume you can learn just fine without rank... everything else?
Think about it.

This is not really an accurate statement. Other areas of life do not necessarily have an explicit rank, but indicators such as grades and how well you do in competitions can give you some sort of information about how well you are doing.

For example, I enjoy math, but I would not know that I am good at math without seeing my grades, or how I performed relative to other people. Math is fun to do, yes. But if I took a test and got a C on it, it would be an indication to me that I did not really know the subject material that well.

Grades, competition, etc. typically give me an indication of how well I am doing in a particular subject matter.

If I try to think of an example of something where I do not receive a grade, and have not competed in, tossing around a frisbee for fun with my wife comes to mind. It's kind of fun to do. However, since we are not competing, I have no idea if I am really good at frisbee or not.

Bantari wrote:Your slave? Or your master?
You decide.

So far, topazg's argument has been the most convincing to me. It is true that I do have fun with go simply in studying. In this sense, rank does not matter.

But when I am competing, both in go, and in other areas of life, I do often evaluate myself based on how well I do relative to other people, or based on grades that I receive.

If I fail an exam, aside from what the exam was about, how well I studied for the material, or how well I think that I did, I still failed the exam. And that failure makes me feel that I do not know the material that well - even if I thought I did before taking the test.

Bantari wrote:1) I can gain at least 2 stones by playing in a different club (yes, this is how messed up the ranks are, which is another reason not to take them seriously). I remember, as a 4d I once played in another club with a guy who was 1d - and gave him 9 handi and beat him. So I made progress... I was 9d!! Yuppie!

This is why I can't help but chuckle a little bit when I hear about "The difference between 1k and 1d" or similar discussions about magic barriers between two ranks...if there were some really some big difference between any given two ranks, then what happens when you go to your new club and are on the other side of that barrier? I mean sure, individuals might come to a point where they feel stuck, but that will vary person to person...

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:...
This is not really an accurate statement. Other areas of life do not necessarily have an explicit rank, but indicators such as grades and how well you do in competitions can give you some sort of information about how well you are doing.

For example, I enjoy math, but I would not know that I am good at math without seeing my grades, or how I performed relative to other people. Math is fun to do, yes. But if I took a test and got a C on it, it would be an indication to me that I did not really know the subject material that well.

Grades, competition, etc. typically give me an indication of how well I am doing in a particular subject matter.

I understand that.

But how about later in life... you become a doctor, or a teacher... there will be no grades, no competitions, very little 'tangible' validation. Will you stop learning, stop growing, stagnate?... I know that this is what they teach you in school - you learn for the grade... you study for the rank... etc. Adult life is very seldom like that, and yet you still need to find motivators to grow and learn and improve and get better every day.

I think that what I say below is very important:
At some point in life, you will need to find a way to motivate yourself 'from the inside'. Be self sufficient, instead of relying on others to provide you with constant validation. To me, this is the true measure of 'inner strength', and it lets you deal with setbacks and overcome obstacles.

An extreme example of what I am trying to say:
Imagine yourself with a Go book and board on a deserted island? Will you stop enjoying studying the game because there is no rank? Will you stop enjoying learning Math because there is no grade? If yes, then what you really enjoy is ranks and grades, not Go and Math.

Bantari wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:...
This is not really an accurate statement. Other areas of life do not necessarily have an explicit rank, but indicators such as grades and how well you do in competitions can give you some sort of information about how well you are doing.

For example, I enjoy math, but I would not know that I am good at math without seeing my grades, or how I performed relative to other people. Math is fun to do, yes. But if I took a test and got a C on it, it would be an indication to me that I did not really know the subject material that well.

Grades, competition, etc. typically give me an indication of how well I am doing in a particular subject matter.

I understand that.

But how about later in life... you become a doctor, or a teacher... there will be no grades, no competitions, very little 'tangible' validation. Will you stop learning, stop growing, stagnate?... I know that this is what they teach you in school - you learn for the grade... you study for the rank... etc. Adult life is very seldom like that, and yet you still need to find motivators to grow and learn and improve and get better every day.

This is probably why I am having a tough time in my first job out of college I've been working for about a year, and I don't feel much direction.

Kirby wrote:This is probably why I am having a tough time in my first job out of college I've been working for about a year, and I don't feel much direction.

Welcome to tech. There is no direction, only more work.

Kirby wrote:This is probably why I am having a tough time in my first job out of college I've been working for about a year, and I don't feel much direction.

Lol.
I think we have all been through that. It takes time to adjust between the school-reality and the real-reality.

Seriously - the skill to be self-sufficient is one of the most important ones in life. And possibly one of the hardest to master, given all the constant influences to the contrary.

But I have never met a truly happy and confident person who did not learn this lesson.
There is a lot of posturing out there, bullying, fake smiles and pretended happiness... but as long as you keep chasing after others, as long as you need constant gratification from others, you're lacking something in life, I think. And you can be easily manipulated, which can be really bad.

What you talking about, ranks, grades, etc - this should be just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Something 'nice', not something 'crucial'.

I think I have said enough on this subject, lol.

heh, I knew the discussion would go much deeper than just about rank...

Everyone who has invested a good deal of time at go has acquired a good deal of knowledge on the subject. Some have soaked up more than others, and some can put their knowledge to better use than others (they have more talent). None of us however (with a minuscule margin for error) are or will ever be great. There will always be an opponent who can humble us; who will be able to lay our weaknesses on the table like a dissected frog. The best we can hope for is at some level to be good at go. And we are. All of us. All of us are able to humble some other player. You are already good at go.

With a few noble exceptions, most of us seem to waste a lot of our energy stumbling over our egos, trying helplessly to blend out the fact of our limited abilities. Humility is not a prized element in western cultures. We tend to learn not that we are an insignificant speck of dust in the universe, but rather that we can do just about anything if only we try. While there are things to be said in favor of both attitudes, the western one doesn't prepare us well for losing. This we have to teach ourselves.

To combat my disappointment at losing, I try to remind myself: a good game is not one that I win, but rather one in which both players are forced to fight tooth and nail to the best of their abilities. Being able to take part in a good game is what makes me a good go player. I am not able to do this all of the time. Sometimes I'm distracted, and sometimes I don't have enough energy. Games under these circumstances don't tend to be good games, even if chance allows me to win some. Although having the same rank or playing with an appropriate handicap is a pre-requisite for a good game, it is really not the deciding factor. I just have to do my best, while being lucky enough that my opponent is doing the same. I don't need to get stronger to play a good game; but playing a good game will probably make me stronger.

Kirby wrote:This is probably why I am having a tough time in my first job out of college I've been working for about a year, and I don't feel much direction.

Spend some time thinking about what you want to do. Keep returning to the question once in a while. Then take steps in that direction. Direction that comes from yourself is greater than that imposed by others.

I'm probably changing the meaning of direction from what you used but it seemed appropriate.

daal wrote:...but rather that we can do just about anything if only we try. ...

This makes sense, but I am not sure that I want to give up this attitude.

CarlJung wrote:Spend some time thinking about what you want to do. Keep returning to the question once in a while. Then take steps in that direction. Direction that comes from yourself is greater than that imposed by others.

I want to stay home and play go, of course

Kirby wrote:

daal wrote:...but rather that we can do just about anything if only we try. ...

This makes sense, but I am not sure that I want to give up this attitude.

Isn't it that attitude that is causing you pain, leading you to ask the original question?

Bantari wrote:Rank obsession has its roots in lack of humility

I think that's a terrible generalization, Bantari... I think it's put forward by people who use the moral high ground associated with it as an excuse not to work hard at improving at Go.

There's quite a difference in perspective here. In China some parents spend several hundreds of dollars a month to send their children to good go schools so they will become stronger. Every kid there knows his dan rank. I get the feeling it's a little more than just a game to those kids. I was taking signatures in grade 9 class the other day for the school's go club. In one class the names went like.. 2 dan.. 2 dan.. 3 dan.. 2 dan.. 5 dan.. 4 dan... these were 11 and 12 year olds.

Granted, not everyone wants to get stronger at this game. I'll point out the typical hat-wearing 5 dan who "doesn't want to get stronger", and takes many outspoken stances on the game and the people who play it. These sorts of people assume a moral high ground, justified by how they have somehow "transcended" the need to talk about rank or rating. There's a few reasons why.. some use this attitude to avoid having to play competitively, preferring to "enjoy" the game. Because it's true, playing on the edge is stressful and more like work than a game. Some use it as an excuse for their inability to improve. It's a terrible thing, to study the game with an open heart for years and simply not improve. I have seen people go into a shell, and it's sad. And I've seen a lot of bad advice get passed around about the game from people who really should know better.

I think that for many people go isn't just a 'game'. Even to many amateurs. So it's wrong to assume that what works for one person's psychology is best for others. If you care about getting stronger at this game, really stronger, then you should focus on your rating compared to others and try to improve it. To do any less is to stagnate. It's simply not plausible to not care about rating if you want to play competitively. If you are weak you have to know it and deal with it. if you are unable to face yourself in this way you will not be able to improve.

Then again, if you're just casual about the game, yeah that is fine too... I just want to point out the difference in perception here which it seems some have missed.

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I'm not sure if anyone has missed the perspective. The title of the thread is "How do you stop thinking about rank?", and therefore the suggestions are intended to answer that. Those that you describe do not, I suspect, want to stop thinking about rank, and are therefore not the target of any of these pieces of advice

Also, how to stop thinking about money, social status, and the number of sexual partners?

topazg wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has missed the perspective. The title of the thread is "How do you stop thinking about rank?", and therefore the suggestions are intended to answer that.

Well, this is the TITLE of the thread. But Kirby also asks if it is 'even something worth getting rid of?'