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66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=1269

Page 4 of 16

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:14 pm
by topazg
Complete sequence ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O 5 O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 X B O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 1 O X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Marked stone at :w1: may be better though...


And good choice of direction I think, it's very hard for White to make those stones work, I think Black succeeded over the last 10 moves. Interesting to see what curve-balls White can throw into the pot here now :)

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:11 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O W . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I'll use my aji in the bottom right, get sente, and come back to play in the top left or thereabouts. Need to secure this group before I try to make more territory. I think my weakness in malkovich games is showing..


I played it because it's thick. On the other hand, it's way too slow, and I'd rather have it one space up and to the right now.. This is probably a weakness of mine, playing overly thick moves instead of considering other possibilities.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:23 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O B . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No reason to sacrifice that stone, so I'll respond normally. Curious to see how Shaddy plans to stablize his group, as he has options. I'm kind of expecting him to attach at the 3-3. Still trying to read to see if I have responses that would make that a bad idea, though.


Thanks for explaining, Shaddy. I like this format, because it's easier to learn from things by asking questions and reading explanations while it's fresh.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:30 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned, nothing special here.


Trigger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X 1 . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:50 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X 1 . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Really wanted to do something different in the bottom right, but it looks like it's not viable. Trying to push through involved me sacrificing R7, and I"m not okay with that. This way, I get to threaten that later. There are a ton of places on the board where I really want to play, and I like it when that happens. For the moment, I'm going to attach here, and respond based on how my opponent plays. I wish I knew joseki better, to know what comes out sente.


Shaddy, is this the last move the response you expected/hoped for from me? I assume you're planning to try for thickness on the outside? If I make a mistake with a move, do let me know (After I make the mistake, at least).

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:45 pm
by Numsgil
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . W . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned, nothing special here.


Hey guys:
I've only ever seen moves like this linked to the nose tesuji, where it sets up a capture or link stones together. That's not the case here. So this move looks really foreign to me. Can someone explain the idea? Is it like a probe? What does white hope to accomplish? Is it a shape move with the stones at Q5 and P3 (that is, is this the sort of move that only works because you have those stones there and they form a triangle)? Assuming black wants to secure his right group, is the empty triangle at S4 really the strongest response?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:17 pm
by Chew Terr
Numsgil:
Well, based on what I was reading: the attachment works because it's sente. I could potentially cut the stone off, but unless I do (wasting sente) he's that much more stable. I couldn't find anything better than the empty triangle. I could have gotten out the other side, but that would let Shaddy cut out my eyespace on this side. This, on the other hand, makes one (tiny) eye. Had I tried to cut through or hane, the push and cut would have started working. As a result, this forcing move, plus the similar move on top, give his group a lot of stability for 'free'. Shaddy can correct me if any of this is wrong, or if there was more to it that I missed.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:27 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expected the one-space jump to the right instead of this, but this is ok too. Seems gote though, where the other way might be sente. For numsgil: my nose move threatens at the cut, which black has to defend with the empty triangle.


Trigger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a or b for 3

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:45 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Numsgil:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X 4 . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Does this picture make it clearer?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:18 am
by topazg
My sealed move :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:57 am
by Loons
I dunno how I feel about all these triggers.

I want to see topazg's sealed move, or something else bold.

I worry that a korean book would describe the situation shaddy's developing as "dynamic"

I think there should be a more efficient way to have written this
I(dunno, want, worry, think)(Triggers|Shaddy|Topazg|Korea) ...


Or maybe I'm awake too late at night

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:22 am
by unkx80
topazg wrote:My sealed move :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Topagz must be crazy. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How can this be good for black?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:34 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 5 . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All right, I think this is it. I feel like this reduction might be too shallow, but I want to be on the safe side. This one seems like I'll be able to get it out, and once I'm stable I might be able to jump in deeper. Any reduction is scary to play, because if it's too deep, you've given the opponent a lot. The trigger moves all make sense, and are pretty much what I hoped and expected my opponent would play. This seems like the right time to reduce, since one more move would get close to sealing all this off. Additionally, all of my groups are stable (ish) now, so my opponent can't really attack another group to build an attack against this, or vice versa. Now I've played this, I FINALLY get to read that sealed move. =D

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:36 am
by topazg
I suppose I want to have something facing that middle - having said that, I forgot that it was a 4-4 stone that was being attached from, I'm not used to it being played - that makes the corner rather a lot bigger than I gave it credit for!

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:47 am
by unkx80
topazg wrote:I suppose I want to have something facing that middle - having said that, I forgot that it was a 4-4 stone that was being attached from, I'm not used to it being played - that makes the corner rather a lot bigger than I gave it credit for!


Even if the whole position is one lower such that the 4-4 stone is at 3-4, I am still going to say the same thing. This is how much value I attach to the corner stone.
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