This is a pretty complicated position, but this move looks good to me. Black should probably play aggressively and cut me, but the fight looks OK for W.
Based on how he is playing I expect him to answer on the right side. After this move, I think my center group is safe, so next I might jump into an approach of the top right. Or maybe enclose the top left. It looks like I can play fairly conservatively and just play to disrupt B's areas since I am ahead in territory.
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:17 pm
by schawipp
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . b . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I decided mainly between (a) and (b). If - after (b) - white played (a) it would look nice to approach upper left at (c). However the connection with my bottom right group is a bit weak which may cause some trouble later. The game move looks more solid in this aspect. If w pokes into the elephant's eye, I can play Q8, and there's no cut at all. If w playes Q8 himself (and has maybe peeped at the bottom before), I could at least fill the elephant's eye by myself, if there's no better move. Besides, I get some potential cash at right side and can still approach the corner or get even more potential cash at upper side. It is also no more pushing from behind thanks to the already existing stone at Q16. There are still some unresolved issues in the center but they currently seem not that urgent, maybe I'm totally wrong in that.
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:06 am
by DJLLAP
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 8 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Easy choice. This connects to my center group and pretty much makes it alive since I should be able to make at least one eye on the side. There are still some possibilities in the corner, so B may play another move there or he may tenuki. Next I would like to isolate the K16 stone, so I can grab some more territory while attacking it.
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:19 am
by schawipp
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
According to Yilun Yang this is a "third class" move as is also my move . The fact that these moves are played that lately in the game shows that the overall opening strategy from both sides might be a bit strange.
In hindsight I am not sure if my was a good move (the shape e.g. is not the greatest) or if I should have played on top of (i.e. o16). This could have splitted white's invasion from the center group which then still might need some attention to become fully settled. It would be interesting to read your opinion on that.
For I would have expected the following possible alternative:
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
White secures a big corner, my upper side can be still undermined from left and my upper right corner is still prone to 3-3 invasion. I wouldn't have liked this continuation from point of view of the black side. What do you think?
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:53 pm
by DJLLAP
$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This seems like a way to keep the corner territory while limiting Blacks moyo in the center. I am a little worried about the 3-3 invasion, but that is not likely, so I will deal with it if it occurs.
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:55 pm
by schawipp
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
My K16 stone is a bit awkward with respect to the usual joseki. Thus I will have to improvise a different continuation afterwards. I'm currently thinking of something like this:
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . 7 . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . 7 . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
White would have a big point at (a) or (b) afterwards; thus I could probably play (a) myself instead of . On second thought is a purely defensive move while (a) would threaten to dive further into the corner. Will have to think further about it...
Re: #259 - DJLLAP vs. schawipp
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:08 pm
by DJLLAP
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . X . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . , . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
. The fact that these moves are played that lately in the game shows that the overall opening strategy from both sides might be a bit strange.
was a good move (the shape e.g. is not the greatest) or if I should have played on top of 
(i.e. o16). This could have splitted white's invasion from the center group which then still might need some attention to become fully settled. It would be interesting to read your opinion on that.
. On second thought