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Curious position

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Re: Curious position

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:57 am
by dany
dany wrote:Area counting. Komi 16.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O O X X O X X |
$$ | . . X O . , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , O X X X X |
$$ | O O O . . O O X . X . |
$$ | X X O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . X . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Modification

Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:57 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
This modification changes a little the idea because I looked for an initial position that was an end position for japanese rules.
Anyway let's me try to defend the position with white.
I propose to begin with:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 6 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
oops I forgot to note a obvious exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X 7 . 6 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:54 pm
by dany
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Gérard TAILLE wrote: This modification changes a little the idea because I looked for an initial position that was an end position for japanese rules.
Anyway let's me try to defend the position with white.
I propose to begin with:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 6 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Oops! I missed that. Black can't win.
Gérard TAILLE wrote: oops I forgot to note a obvious exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X 7 . 6 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Black win ;-)

Re: Curious position

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:50 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Gérard TAILLE wrote: This modification changes a little the idea because I looked for an initial position that was an end position for japanese rules.
Anyway let's me try to defend the position with white.
I propose to begin with:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 6 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Oops! I missed that. Black can't win.
Gérard TAILLE wrote: oops I forgot to note a obvious exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X 7 . 6 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Black win ;-)
Yes Dany that was my point. The exchange in the lower left corner is losing for white (this position was already seen previously) but by playing :w6: in the upper right corner white wins.

Re: Curious position

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:02 pm
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote:
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Gérard TAILLE wrote: This modification changes a little the idea because I looked for an initial position that was an end position for japanese rules.
Anyway let's me try to defend the position with white.
I propose to begin with:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 6 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Oops! I missed that. Black can't win.
Gérard TAILLE wrote: oops I forgot to note a obvious exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X X O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X 7 . 6 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Black win ;-)
Yes Dany that was my point. The exchange in the lower left corner is losing for white (this position was already seen previously) but by playing :w6: in the upper right corner white wins.

Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X . O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
fixed modification

Re: Curious position

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:57 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X . O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
fixed modification
I am not sure it works Dany.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O 7 X |
$$ | . . X 6 O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
and now white can sacrifice the upper left corner against the bottom right corner, without using the bottom left corner.

Re: Curious position

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:40 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote: Area counting. Komi 6.5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X . O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
fixed modification
I am not sure it works Dany.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O 7 X |
$$ | . . X 6 O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
and now white can sacrifice the upper left corner against the bottom right corner, without using the bottom left corner.
I don't understand what you're talking about
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 9 O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O 7 X |
$$ | . . X 6 O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:08 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote: I don't understand what you're talking about
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 9 O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O 7 X |
$$ | . . X 6 O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | 6 X X X O . O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O . O X O X X |
$$ | 2 . X O O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O 3 |
$$ | . X . . . X O X 4 5 X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | O X X X O . O X O O . |
$$ | 7 O X O O . O X O X X |
$$ | O 5 X O O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O 6 X O 1 |
$$ | . X . . 3 X O X 4 X 2 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Re: Curious position

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:34 am
by dany
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
dany wrote: I don't understand what you're talking about
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X 9 O . O X O O . |
$$ | 4 O X 8 O . O X O 7 X |
$$ | . . X 6 O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O 1 O . 5 O . |
$$ | . X . . . 3 2 X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | 6 X X X O . O X O O . |
$$ | O O X O O . O X O X X |
$$ | 2 . X O O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O . X O 3 |
$$ | . X . . . X O X 4 5 X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | O X X X O . O X O O . |
$$ | 7 O X O O . O X O X X |
$$ | O 5 X O O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O X O 6 X O 1 |
$$ | . X . . 3 X O X 4 X 2 |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
And Black 64 points, White 57 points. B+0.5

Re: Curious position

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:23 am
by Gérard TAILLE
dany wrote:And Black 64 points, White 57 points. B+0.5
Oh I see.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play and win
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . X X . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . O . O X O . X |
$$ | . . X M O , O X O . . |
$$ | X X X O . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O O . . O X X X X |
$$ | . . , . . , . O X . X |
$$ | O O . . . O O O Z X . |
$$ | X O O O O X X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . X . X X |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
When you proposed the above modification I noticed the modifcation in the upper left corenr but not the one in the center. Sorry Dany.
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