Life In 19x19

RobertJasiek wrote:

kirkmc wrote:There's no "greater detail" than what the WADA list says; the molecule name is unique.

On boxes there can be greater detail because such has occurred.

Or do you suggest that always greater detail means a different molecule necessarily? If so, then I still wonder whether a greater detail name falls under "etc." in the IGF list.

You'd have to give a concrete example of what you mean by "greater detail." Medications have single-word names (their molecules, at least; their chemical composition is different, but that's not on boxes).

Better examples (than already given by principle) I cannot give to protect my own privacy.

RobertJasiek wrote:Better examples (than already given by principle) I cannot give to protect my own privacy.

Um hmm...

I've been deliberately staying out of this, but one thing does concern me:

kirkmc wrote:...But you have trouble with this; you think this system was just created to annoy go players.

This is close but not quite accurate with regards to my concerns. My concerns are that the majority of the drug list for physical sports is designed to cater for those contributing to improved physical performance, and is a generally unhelpful list with regards to regulating mind sports. Having been involved with some of the British Go Association policy discussions on this issue because of their involvement with the World Mind Sports Games in the past (and including correspondence with the IGF and the IOC), the BGA have decided to sidestep most issues that involve the drug regulation (from memory, we now require random drugs tests for any Go players with a rating consistently above GoR 2700 though ).

Firstly, many asthmatics are a bit stuck, as some of the steroid based inhalers fail a check against the list, and as for most in this country Go is merely a hobby to be enjoyed, finding alternative forms of medication or fulfilling the onerous exemption paperwork is not worth it - better to just not bother with RL tournaments that have a desire for relevant compliance. Caffeine would be a substance that should make it onto a regulated list for mind sports (and yes, I am aware it is regulated anyway), but you try telling your Go tournament attendees that they aren't allowed Red Bull, Tea, or Coffee, and they won't turn up. As a result, anti-doping practices for the majority of UK go players and tournaments is not even going to be considered in the near future.

I'm all for having a system that prevents substance "abuse" giving an unfair advantage in high profile competitive environments, but until a brand new drugs regulation list is generated specifically for mind sports, there is no point in trying to implement anti-doping procedures in my (not so) humble opinion. Even when this point has been reached, I think it should still be limited to very specific tournaments, such as perhaps the winner of panda.net tours, and even then I'd vote against it. Unlike things like track athletics, the Go world has never been known for abuse by drug management by its top players, and rules disputes ( sorry Robert, just light hearted I promise ) have played a much bigger role in top level controversy. Regulation just because you can is extra administration and paperwork, and without good cause I think it's better just not to have it. If rumours start flying that top Go player starts taking drug X because it gives 3 hours of perfect concentration and focus, and that's why he won the {nationality} national title, then this can start to be seriously addressed, but my memory is the original motivation of adopting an anti-doping policy was Olympic level compliance (originally to make it an Olympic sport) and then for WMSG and WAGC, and I think the framework is just not in place to do this justice at this point in time.

Aside from repeating bits that John F has already said better than me, I just couldn't resist throwing my own oar in

Asthmatics have no problem; they can get the necessary approval if their doctors attest to the condition. Interestingly, in professional cycling, there are very many asthmatics... (Yea, my guess is they use the loophole to be able to take meds that improve their breathing abilities.)

I do agree, though, that it would make a lot more sense to have a specific list for mind sports. Steroids don't really help thinking (though they do have a stimulating effect), and many of the other meds on the list like EPO only affect physical activities. But stimulants, beta blockers and many others could be helpful.

Personally, I think the whole olympics thing is a pipe dream, and that this whole subject is just a bother.

HermanHiddema wrote:

ethanb wrote:Which is odd, because I actually would have something to be concerned about. I have narcolepsy, and I don't even need to look at the list to be certain that my medication is on it (armodafinil, if anyone wants to check me.) It promotes wakefulness and is a holistic stimulant. Obviously aids concentration. And keeps me from falling asleep during the game.

Yep, that's on there on page 7, section S6-a, as modafinil (armodafinil is the brand name).

Modafinil is one of the few substances that might actually enhance go performance, from what I've read.

Herman are you very sure?

wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armodafinil says:

Armodafinil (Nuvigil) is a stimulant-like drug produced by the pharmaceutical company Cephalon Inc., which was approved by the FDA on June 15, 2007.[1] Armodafinil is the active (−)-(R)-enantiomer of the racemic drug modafinil (Provigil).

So it is not a brand name but a drugname (Please Ethanb is it a brandname or a drugname?)

(and also what is Nuvigil mentioned above?)

Armodafinil is NOT on the list
(but Adrafinil and Modafinil are)

So I am not sure if it is prohibited

@kirkmc A nice fact, since it came up earlier in the thread, and I've downed almost 40 capsules of the stuff since falling ill last Thursday: Paracetamol isn't actually called Paracetamol where I live.

But if the organizers are good enough at keeping two sets of books, this sort of thing may not be a problem.

That is a good example. You won't find "Paracetamol" in the list of ingredients on a box of, say, Tylenol bought in the USA. It will say acetaminophen.

hyperpape wrote:@kirkmc A nice fact, since it came up earlier in the thread, and I've downed almost 40 capsules of the stuff since falling ill last Thursday: Paracetamol isn't actually called Paracetamol where I live.

But if the organizers are good enough at keeping two sets of books, this sort of thing may not be a problem.

Yea, that's one of the most common oddities.

There are two naming conventions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... etary_Name

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Adopted_Name

It seems that in only a limited number of cases there are differences between them.

willemien wrote:
wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armodafinil says:

Armodafinil (Nuvigil) is a stimulant-like drug produced by the pharmaceutical company Cephalon Inc., which was approved by the FDA on June 15, 2007.[1] Armodafinil is the active (−)-(R)-enantiomer of the racemic drug modafinil (Provigil).

So it is not a brand name but a drugname (Please Ethanb is it a brandname or a drugname?)

That means that Armodafinil is a molecule name of a drug sold under the brand name of Nuvigil. It's an alteration of modafinil, which is sold under the brand name Provigil.

Trivia of the day: heroin is a brand name...

Has anyone in the Go community been tested yet?

There were tests taken on some players at this year's WAGC in Hangzhou. One of my opponents (fifth round) was told that he was the random pick, while 4 or 5 of the top players were also tested. I did not hear any complaints.

Best wishes.

Helel wrote:Does anyone realy care if Robert starts using some of the strong painkillers on the list? As far as I'm concerned he can shoot as much heroin as he likes.

I care:) Lethal things like heroin nobody should ever use.

kirkmc wrote:

willemien wrote:
wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armodafinil says:

Armodafinil (Nuvigil) is a stimulant-like drug produced by the pharmaceutical company Cephalon Inc., which was approved by the FDA on June 15, 2007.[1] Armodafinil is the active (−)-(R)-enantiomer of the racemic drug modafinil (Provigil).

So it is not a brand name but a drugname (Please Ethanb is it a brandname or a drugname?)

That means that Armodafinil is a molecule name of a drug sold under the brand name of Nuvigil. It's an alteration of modafinil, which is sold under the brand name Provigil.

Trivia of the day: heroin is a brand name...

kirkmc is 100% correct.

Nuvigil is what my prescription is written for - armodafinil is the name of the drug (there is no generic available in the U.S. - it's still under patent for quite a long time, unfortunately for my wallet and the [lack of] ease of getting it through health insurance.)

Armodafinil is present within modafinil - modafinil is a racemic mixture (it contains both the right-handed and left-handed forms of the molecule) but armodafinil is only the R-enantiomer (the right-handed form.) I guess that the R-enantiomer is the only part that interacts with the human metabolism, so that's why I can take a smaller dosage (250 mg daily of this as opposed to 400 mg of the Provigil which still didn't do the job quite as well as the Nuvigil does.)

Helel wrote:When there are so much money involved as in professional athletics there will be doping of one kind of another. Trying to stop it is an exercise in futility. Since professional athletics is about entertainment anyway, I am further of the opinion that the practitioners should be allowed to use any kind of lethal chemicals they may wish, it is after all their lives.

The problem is that this encourages those who want to play a sport to sacrifice their own physical health for the capacity to compete with all the other people who are doping up. Doping might inevitably become the norm. Unlike in the case of a simply personal decision in a private situation, the decision to use chemicals to artificially enhance performance in a social event is not something with consequences simply constrained to one's person. In this particular case, it alters the entire fabric of the competition in a way that could potentially exclude entirely those not willing to dope up for it.

I am fairly libertarian in attitude about substance use, but I think it is very important to recognize in particular situations there are significant consequences beyond the individual if they are used. If opiates were legalized, I think it should be fairly obvious that they would not be legal to use while operating heavy machinery. I do not think it should be legal for a mother or father with an obligation to care for their children to be shooting up heroin instead.