Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://www.lifein19x19.com/

95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3105

Page 4 of 10

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:01 am
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:06 am
by EdLee
Not for either player.
balmung wrote:So the best I can do now is try to gain profit from the stones.
No. Better is to simply forget those stones for now and move on (i.e. tenuki).
Continuing to play locally is being stubborn, throwing good money at bad
and only serves to help W -- removes bad aji for W and
gives W both more thickness and dead B stones.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:07 am
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:20 am
by Violence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 B O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope Balmung is not considering this... this is pretty much the best thing ever for white.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:24 am
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lets make this exchange first

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:42 am
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

in my opinion it was the better of the two responses aphelion had, but we will see how this plays out.
heres a variation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1-13cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 9 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

1-3 in the upper right are 11-13 I couldn't figure out how to get double digits in this diagram.

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:56 am
by EdLee
@balmung.
balmung wrote:I couldn't figure out how to get double digits in this diagram.
Like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . . . . . |
$$. . . , X 8 . |
$$. . . 7 6 9 . |
$$. . . 5 4 0 . |
$$. . . 3 1 2 . |
$$. . . O X O . |
$$. . . . O X . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . O . O . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ --------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . 3 . 1 . |
$$. . . , X O . |
$$. . . X O X 2 |
$$. . . X O O . |
$$. . . X X O . |
$$. . . O X O . |
$$. . . . O X . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . O . O . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:54 am
by judicata
@Violence
Violence wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 B O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope Balmung is not considering this... this is pretty much the best thing ever for white.


While this is obviously good for white, is there a local variation you would prefer? I agree with comments that tenuki is best so maybe b can use some aji later, but I don't see anything much better locally.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:02 am
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:30 am
by Violence
@judicata

Tenuki is the only option here.

The mentality here is to realize that you dun goofed, plain and simple. You might be able to utilize the aji of the stones... later... but right now, he's just helping white for an inferior exchange.

And ten bucks says that he'll feel comfortable with the sequence I mentioned.

It's quite common in many players to mess up, and then go into damage control mode, and then feel a bit proud of yourself for not totally falling apart, but this mentality can be dangerous. It's always important to recognize when you've fallen behind, and have the maturity to go:

Yeah... I'm losing... but... LOOK OVER THERE!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Emphasizing the rest of the board is much more important than suddenly switching into sacrifice mode, unless you can see a clear sacrifice sequence that is both forced and good for you.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:49 am
by daniel_the_smith
Stones like R9 are like zits. It's really best if you just leave them alone as soon as you realize what they are.

Later, start a fight nearby.

Even later, maybe you'll see a way to use them that gives a clear benefit. That's when you do something with them.

But never throw good stones after bad.

Every decent go player will eventually learn the sunk costs fallacy and avoid it, even if they don't know it by that name.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:02 am
by hman
@Violence
Violence wrote:Tenuki is the only option here.

The mentality here is to realize that you dun goofed, plain and simple. You might be able to utilize the aji of the stones... later... but right now, he's just helping white for an inferior exchange.
...
It's quite common in many players to mess up, and then go into damage control mode, and then feel a bit proud of yourself for not totally falling apart, but this mentality can be dangerous. It's always important to recognize when you've fallen behind, and have the maturity to go:

Yeah... I'm losing... but... LOOK OVER THERE!
...
Emphasizing the rest of the board is much more important than suddenly switching into sacrifice mode, unless you can see a clear sacrifice sequence that is both forced and good for you.

Violence,
as a humble DDK with time and distraction issues (I really hope these are the major reasons for my slow to inexistent growth) I can only say: realizing I made exactly this error in a number of my recent games could become a major boost. So

THANK YOU!

for spelling it out.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:07 am
by Magicwand
there are korean baduk saying that is true for most cases.
"if you dont know what to play...tenuki"

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:00 pm
by Loons
@Violence, etc.
... The mentality here is to realize that you dun goofed, plain and simple. ...


But this is such a bitter pill to swallow! I blame Aesop getting to me a good decade and a half before Kageyama. I act on a bad idea, I know I should tenuki but Aesop begins telling me a story about a little boy and a nettle...


@Balmung
I'm looking forward to you getting your feet back on track and the game becoming interesting. Remember that, even if you are at disadvantage, playing the best, most honest moves you can find is still the road to victory; rather than the dark seductions of overplays.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:54 pm
by Violence
Hman
My pleasure.


Magicwand
I think that's also a Chinese saying too. And I'm pretty sure I've heard someone say it in Japan, during a lecture. It's pretty good advice.


Loons
I overheard the following at a Go Congress that I found pretty hilarious:
"Why did you keep playing here? It's just helping black..."
"Well, I felt like I had tripped and fallen into this bad situation, and I was trying to crawl my way out."
"Dude, screw crawling, teleport! *tenuki slam*"

I now want to see an aesop's fable about the psychokinetic who fell.




At any rate, let's see how black picks himself up from this situation and continues the game.
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 4 of 10

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited