lag SUCKS

[BigDoug]

Hello,

The point is not that that daal should track down his cause of lag with tracert or whatever, but that KGS should implement a better lag handling protocol. Even with horrendous lag, games should not be be lost because of it. If Tygem et al can figure out a way to avoid lag losses, then why not KGS? It's a tricky problem, I'll grant you, and I can't think of a way of solving it, but clearly, its possible, as no one to my knowledge has ever complained of a lag related loss on Tygem or Oro.

I watch lots of 10-second blitz games where both players let their clock get down to literally the last second before placing a stone. Then there can be a minor lag spike or maybe they mess up their last-second timing and suddenly it's KGS' fault that they lost the game. I would argue that if you consistently wait until the last 1-2 seconds to place a stone, eventually you're going to stuff it up and it's not KGS' fault that you've lost the game.

I also see people who complain about lag, who then play 10-second game after 10-second game. Last week, one player complained about losing his last four games because of lag. They were all very quick blitz games. From my perspective, if you're experiencing lag, why would you continue to play fast blitz games? In this circumstance, it's better to extend the byo-omi times and make the moves when there are 10 seconds on the clock.

Furthermore, it's not unusual for people who are losing by significant margins to lose on time. Perhaps it's coincidence, but as the end game approaches and the game is clearly lost, the moves get slower and the clock runs out. It's a simple face-saving exercise and cannot be prevented.

As far as KGS having an obligation to prevent game losses because of blitz, this is just one of a long list of requests on the KGS Wishlist page on Sensei's Library. Of all of the requests, I certainly wouldn't put lag-related changes at the top of the list.

If you don't mind question, how did you determine that Tygem doesn't have any lag issues? How did you measure it?

[daal]

I seem to be detecting a lag in communication.

Is the likelihood of faulty hops on the way to other go servers any smaller? No. If it's not KGS's fault, why don't we experience lag on other go servers?

Perhaps this is purely subjective, as I play more games on KGS than on other servers, but quite frankly, I have literally never suffered because of lag anywhere besides on KGS.

And I rarely experience lag on KGS. It's almost as if you're actively refusing to understand that different routes are taken to each service on the Internet, and KGS does not own the switches and wires between you and their server(s). You obviously didn't bother to do a tracert like I suggested.

This is starting to make me a little angry.

Of course I understand that different routes are taken to each service on the internet, and that KGS does not have any control of whatever is between me and their server. But what you seem to be actively refusing to understand, is my point, which I have now made repeatedly, that Tygem, WBaduk, IGS or for that matter yahoogames doesn't control the route between me and them either, and they - to the best of my knowledge - do not suffer lag difficulties, and somehow manage to avoid the problems that cause people to complain about KGS.

And why should I bother to do a tracert? Will it eliminate my lag probem? Should I do it because then I will understand the internet? What will it prove? That it's a long way between me and KGS? It's also a long way between me and the other servers. While it's wonderful for you that you don't have lag problems on KGS, I do.

[Ortho]

Indeed. Time is kept on the server and sent to the client with each move. One problem with your proposed solution is a hacked client would allow people to have more time each move than they should have by telling the server they were lagging when they really weren't. Say for instance I see my opponents move, examine the position for 60s, then I move and my client tells the server I experienced 5s of lag when there was none. People could cheat the clock and it would be very hard to detect, let alone prove.

Chess servers have handled this fine for at least 10 years by time stamping moves. That someone might hack the client to send false timestamps to the server is a poor argument for not allowing the other 99.9999% to benefit from the change.

Of course, the real truth is simply that those in charge of the programming at KGS just don't feel like doing it.

[quantumf]

Of all of the requests, I certainly wouldn't put lag-related changes at the top of the list.

Me neither. As my internet has improved, this has become less of an issue over the years.

how did you determine that Tygem doesn't have any lag issues? How did you measure it?

Tygem almost certainly has lag issues, but they are hidden from me. My move appears locally on the client immediately (unlike KGS, which waits for a server response before showing the local move), and then the client and server (presumably) negotiate in some way to establish how long my move actually took before deciding whether I lost on time or not.

[daal]

I watch lots of 10-second blitz games where both players let their clock get down to literally the last second before placing a stone.

Clearly the problem is exacerbated in blitz games, but it is not limited to them. I'm sure you've also often seen games in which a player types a period while waiting for his opponent to move, to make sure that his client is responding correctly. I've lost a number of games thinking that it was my opponent's turn.

If you don't mind question, how did you determine that Tygem doesn't have any lag issues? How did you measure it?

I realize that you weren't talking to me, and that you presumably disregard subjective experience, but while I have no idea how to measure lag, measuring complaints is easy - just count them.

[quantumf]

Chess servers have handled this fine for at least 10 years by time stamping moves. That someone might hack the client to send false timestamps to the server is a poor argument for not allowing the other 99.9999% to benefit from the change.

Agreed. Also, as KGS uses a closed protocal and a fixed client, this would be particularly hard to hack

[quantumf]

Clearly the problem is exacerbated in blitz games, but it is not limited to them. I'm sure you've also often seen games in which a player types a period while waiting for his opponent to move, to make sure that his client is responding correctly. I've lost a number of games thinking that it was my opponent's turn.

Heh, good one. I still use this lag check in about 1/4 of my games. I'd forgotten how automatic it is.

[BigDoug]

Hello,

I realize that you weren't talking to me, and that you presumably disregard subjective experience, but while I have no idea how to measure lag, measuring complaints is easy - just count them.

Yes, I agree. People complain about lag, just like they complain about missing sounds, escapers, insufficient tolerance of bad connections (particularly in third world countries), automatic forfeits, not enough automatic forfeits, people not saying hello, people talking in other languages, too much swearing, too much censorship, heavy-handed admins, not enough admins and so on. Each person who complains believes that their grievance is important and we respect each person's right to express their opinion.

The point is that lag resolution is one of many changes which people have requested. It's all a matter of priorities. At present, obviously other items are seen as more important. That's not to say that lag resolution is unimportant, just not at the top of the to-do list at the moment.

As you've noted, other servers have different priorities. That's one of the benefits of the game's increasing popularity. If you don't like one server, there are plenty of others to xhoose from.

[Uberdude]

But what you seem to be actively refusing to understand, is my point, which I have now made repeatedly, that Tygem, WBaduk, IGS or for that matter yahoogames doesn't control the route between me and them either, and they - to the best of my knowledge - do not suffer lag difficulties, and somehow manage to avoid the problems that cause people to complain about KGS.

FYI, I have had lag on IGS.

[hyperpape]

To wms, bigdoug and others: I lose because kgs kicks me out of the game +70% of the time (extreme lag or plain disconnection) IT ONLY HAPPENS ON KGS. Is it clear enough formatted like this?

Since this doesn't happen to the vast majority of people, it pretty much proves that your connection or computer is at fault. Your experience is an extreme outlier. It's comparable to what I experienced when I lived in a house in a rural area that was built in the 1890s. When the ISP technician came out to investigate one problem, he said he was amazed that we could get the internet, our wiring was so bad (we were on DSL).

It may be that the KGS server is exacerbating problems, but obviously something is going wrong on your end, because the vast majority of players do not experience the level of problems that you do.

[sefo]

Since this doesn't happen to the vast majority of people, it pretty much proves that your connection or computer is at fault.

Oh god... Here comes another one.

IT ONLY HAPPENS ON KGS

Can you see it now? The line just above.

The point is that lag resolution is one of many changes which people have requested. It's all a matter of priorities. At present, obviously other items are seen as more important. That's not to say that lag resolution is unimportant, just not at the top of the to-do list at the moment.

FINALLY! I genuinely thank you for finally acknowledging that KGS CAN solve the lag problems, thus closing that horrendous debate filled with absolute nonsense about changing computer and using traceroute to see where the bits come and go.

It doesn't matter much to me to know when or if you're even going to try to fix it, since as many have noted, the majority doesn't suffer from it. But at least I won't hear the insane arguments that polluted the discussion so far.

[daal]

The point is that lag resolution is one of many changes which people have requested. It's all a matter of priorities. At present, obviously other items are seen as more important. That's not to say that lag resolution is unimportant, just not at the top of the to-do list at the moment.

Thanks for the acknowledgement that this might be a problem that KGS could fix.

If you don't like one server, there are plenty of others to xhoose from.

I do wish you wouldn't resort to this standard cop out. I wasn't talking about not liking a server. I was talking about one irritating deficiency of my favorite server.

[speedchase]

Since this doesn't happen to the vast majority of people, it pretty much proves that your connection or computer is at fault.

Oh god... Here comes another one.

IT ONLY HAPPENS ON KGS

Can you see it now? The line just above.

what is your point? I never lag of KGS and often lag on tygem. it just so happens that your connection doesn't "like" kgs, and mine doesn't "like" tygem, but that doesn't prove anything about the quality of servers for KGS or Tygem. Also you seem to look down on people who make arguments like hyperpape just made, but you need to realized that you are essentially using the same logic.

[hyperpape]

Yes, I made a slight mistake. Since you experience such an extreme issue that few others do, it proves that there must be something special about your connection as far as it interacts with KGS. It may be that your connection would be ok with a different server (as speedchase points out, it may not be "better" or "worse" connections, but just fit). But the basic point is right. There has to be something about your connection or computer that makes a difference.

[illluck]

Is my understanding below correct?

Request:
Better lag-handling protocol on KGS because it's frustrating to lose games due to lag that cannot be controlled by player

Responses:
It's not the fault of KGS
Trace flow of data over internet
Go to another server
You are a minority of users who have this problem
Play faster

Is it just me, or are the responses absolutely unhelpful?