Life In 19x19

Kirby wrote:

Helel wrote:...

The 10 games limit provides a buffer that allows people to leave games unfinished when they take a strong dislike of their opponent. ...

This is the feeling I got from another thread on this topic; It appears that there's been an intentional effort to allow people to keep from finishing games against people they don't like.

I really do not agree with the philosophy behind this.

Have any KGS admins confirmed this or suggested it? I had sort of thought this thread was mostly speculation/post-hoc rationalization by people who didn't know the exact reasons. I had assumed the rule was intended to help people who had connection problems.

hyperpape wrote:...Have any KGS admins confirmed this or suggested it? I had sort of thought this thread was mostly speculation/post-hoc rationalization by people who didn't know the exact reasons. I had assumed the rule was intended to help people who had connection problems.

Mef is a KGS admin. Actually, he's a senior admin.

Mef wrote:This has been discussed time and time again (dating back to RGG), and in fact has even been answered in this thread. The principle of "No one should be forced to continue a game they have no desire to finish."

The principle of "No one should be forced to continue a game they have no desire to finish.", to me, seems to suggest that if you don't want to finish a game for whatever reason (eg. you don't like your opponent, you're late for your date, etc.), then you don't have the responsibility to finish the game you've started.

I do not agree with this philosophy, because I feel that, when you start a game, you should see it through to the end.

On the topic of connection problems, again, I think that having a buffer of 5 to 10 minutes for people to get back into the game would suffice to alleviate any connection issues that people have.

These days, I can't even think of a person that has, for example, a dial-up connection, so it's surprising to me that this is still a really big issue. In any case, giving a time buffer should suffice to let people get back online.

Again, though, from Mef's comment above, it seems to me that the philosophy behind the current policy does not only have to do with connection speed, but also with whether a person feels like finishing a game they have "no desire to finish".

I live in a small city in a house built in the 1930s. I have DSL, but get poor speed even for that, and have frequent interruptions. I probably could still finish all my games if there was a 5 minute timeout that reset on every disconnection. If I had 5 minutes total, I think I would lose games on time.

Note that KGS has a mobile client, and mobile networks are pretty bad. Also, there are places that have even worse broadband than the US.

Kirby wrote:Mef is a KGS admin. Actually, he's a senior admin.

Missed that, and I'm surprised.

hyperpape wrote:I live in a small city in a house built in the 1930s. I have DSL, but get poor speed even for that, and have frequent interruptions. I probably could still finish all my games if there was a 5 minute timeout that reset on every disconnection. If I had 5 minutes total, I think I would lose games on time.

Yeah, I'd prefer if it were 5 minutes on a per-disconnection basis. This gives people time, and still eliminates the escaper problem. They can't stay away from the game forever, so they cannot escape.

Kirby wrote:

hyperpape wrote:I live in a small city in a house built in the 1930s. I have DSL, but get poor speed even for that, and have frequent interruptions. I probably could still finish all my games if there was a 5 minute timeout that reset on every disconnection. If I had 5 minutes total, I think I would lose games on time.

Yeah, I'd prefer if it were 5 minutes on a per-disconnection basis. This gives people time, and still eliminates the escaper problem. They can't stay away from the game forever, so they cannot escape.

I agree.
And anything much longer than 5 minutes per disconnect becomes really unfair towards the still connected player. If the internet connection is really that bad, there is still the option to play with longer time settings.

Kirby wrote:

hyperpape wrote:I live in a small city in a house built in the 1930s. I have DSL, but get poor speed even for that, and have frequent interruptions. I probably could still finish all my games if there was a 5 minute timeout that reset on every disconnection. If I had 5 minutes total, I think I would lose games on time.

Yeah, I'd prefer if it were 5 minutes on a per-disconnection basis. This gives people time, and still eliminates the escaper problem. They can't stay away from the game forever, so they cannot escape.

I disconnect, you wait, I reconnect, I disconnect...

Sometimes I play blitz at lunchtime. 5 to 10 minutes becomes awkward.

hyperpape wrote:...

I disconnect, you wait, I reconnect, I disconnect...

Yes, but you cannot be gone for more than 5 to 10 minutes or you will lose the game. Today's escapers can leave the game and stay away for days.

Sometimes I play blitz at lunchtime. 5 to 10 minutes becomes awkward.

Is it more awkward than two days, for example?

If you cannot commit to finishing a game through, though, you could simply play a free game.

The point is, having a time limit enforces commitment to the game. You cannot leave just because you feel like it.

chipping in... with a different angle.

From what I gather KGS has a lenient escaper policy.

In online poker the responsibility for the internet connection is clearly with the players.
If you have a dodgy connection you will lose money. Typically you are permitted one minute to reconnect. This is done to help the flow of the game and to make sure there is no "work around" on a losing hand.

Internet poker was far more international with more diverse internet connections than Go ever was and there was a lot more at stake.

If a poker room adopted the a KGS type policy then there would be many ways to avoid losses which are a part of the game and would be unfair on "robust connection" players.

On Tygem you lose after about 5 minutes on disconnect. This is clean and understood by the players. If there is a genuine/rare disconnect a rematch costs nothing. If disconnection is a common problem for a player then possibly he is destroying the game enjoyment for his opponents and should consider a turn based server.

One thought -- I try not to treat any particular game of Go as spectacularly important. If something important related to family, work, or friends comes up while I'm playing a game on KGS, I would like to drop the game without a second thought. If all my opponents spoke English, I'm sure it would be fairly easy to say "Hey, I'm sorry, something's come up," and come back to the game later. In practice, though, most of my opponents seem to be Japanese. I like that the lenient policy on leaving one's games gives me the option to simply close the game and come back to it later, even without any conversation with the other player.

Kirby wrote:
Mef is a KGS admin. Actually, he's a senior admin.

Mef wrote:This has been discussed time and time again (dating back to RGG), and in fact has even been answered in this thread. The principle of "No one should be forced to continue a game they have no desire to finish."

I've mentioned before that I've given up on these discussions since nothing new is ever brought up, but I would just like to clarify on this since I'm being quoted -- When I say this I'm doing my best to paraphrase/recall the sentiment wms expressed when the new escaper policy was implemented (and likely when the old was was implemented too...wms if you read these threads please feel free to correct me if my memory is poor). This isn't a backwards rationalization of the system, it was one of the driving principles behind designing it.

Taking on earlier comments about

1] Nothing new brought up: How about a "Can I go to the toilet?" button. Once pressed your opponent would receive a message in his native language and sees a range of buttons giving him periods of time for which to allow you to do the deed.

2] Game of honour: I agree. I'd suggest a "Harakiri" button on all accounts. An escaper could reflect on his action and press this. An email would then be sent to all the people he ever escaped on decrying his shame and dishonour, What would then happen is that the system would, one by on,e remove each of his past victories but do so very slowly. In this way he would see his rank go down over a series of days. In a final blow.. his IP would be blocked.

BobC wrote:Taking on earlier comments about

1] Nothing new brought up: How about a "Can I go to the toilet?" button. Once pressed your opponent would receive a message in his native language and sees a range of buttons giving him periods of time for which to allow you to do the deed.

Amusingly enough.....The suggestion of pre-translated messages available via button or dropdown box has been brought up a number of times (I believe it is available on a few other games sites, perhaps other go servers?), and the add time buttons already exist (=

I think the harakiri button would be unique though..

an aspect of why there are escapers is because KGS explains the system poorly imo.

Almost every game you play on a computer has a tutorial, not a read only but a ingame one, explaining how to use certain things in the game.

KGS could do the same thing for ppl with new accounts, doing a little on the fly tutorial explaining how to start a game, edit your profile, end a game, explain how to resume a game that kind of stuff.

I tried playing with a new account and out of 5 games i played with other new players 2 of them didnt know they had escaped a game because they were new to kgs and didnt even know it happened. They were sorry and happily finished the game, but what i'd like to emphasize is that KGS doesn't explain well enough how it all works.

P.S. I know the KGS faq, but really, is that the modern way to introduce something to new players?

jts wrote:One thought -- I try not to treat any particular game of Go as spectacularly important. If something important related to family, work, or friends comes up while I'm playing a game on KGS, I would like to drop the game without a second thought. If all my opponents spoke English, I'm sure it would be fairly easy to say "Hey, I'm sorry, something's come up," and come back to the game later. In practice, though, most of my opponents seem to be Japanese. I like that the lenient policy on leaving one's games gives me the option to simply close the game and come back to it later, even without any conversation with the other player.

I do this by resigning (or accidently running out of time if recieving a phone call during a blitz game). Imho this seems fairer to my opponent then burdening them with unfinished games, that they have to continue some other time.
If a game is to important to be interupted, I make sure I won't.