Ranking...

[Mef]

actually I disagree with you on Judo.. Most classes end up in "fights" (as practice for tournaments). They are short lived.. they can hurt.. and like tournaments, require an umpire.. Kyu grading is vital to safety amongst other things.

You would not expect a 10 year old girl's judo ranking to be an accurate predictor of her abilities to fight a (lesser trained, but still trained) 200 lb man. The ranking is meant more as a mastery of technique rather than a predictor of fighting results.

[BobC]

actually I disagree with you on Judo.. Most classes end up in "fights" (as practice for tournaments). They are short lived.. they can hurt.. and like tournaments, require an umpire.. Kyu grading is vital to safety amongst other things.

You would not expect a 10 year old girl's judo ranking to be an accurate predictor of her abilities to fight a (lesser trained, but still trained) 200 lb man. The ranking is meant more as a mastery of technique rather than a predictor of fighting results.

Junior grades are different... a black belt 16 year old is often taken back to blue belt on passing 16 (adult level).. beyond that, as with many fighting arts (boxing, wrestling) ... tournament fights are arranged by weight.

Although demonstration of kata ( sequences of moves- bit like dancing) must by passed at all levels.. most gradings are largely determined by fights .. typically you have to beat a couple of judo players at your own level and two out of three at the higher level before you move up a Kyu...

If look here:

http://www.wycombejudocentre.co.uk/BJAD ... llabus.pdf

you can see that Dan grades in judo are taken a lot more seriously than beating a few peers on a server...

[Mef]

Junior grades are different... a black belt 16 year old is often taken back to blue belt on passing 16 (adult level).. beyond that, as with many fighting arts (boxing, wrestling) ... tournament fights are arranged by weight.

Although demonstration of kata ( sequences of moves- bit like dancing) must by passed at all levels.. most gradings are largely determined by fights .. typically you have to beat a couple of judo players at your own level and two out of three at the higher level before you move up a Kyu...

If look here:

http://www.wycombejudocentre.co.uk/BJAD ... llabus.pdf

you can see that Dan grades in judo are taken a lot more seriously than beating a few peers on a server...

Not to quibble too much, but again, until you reach dan grades even the first syllabus you posted explicitly mentions there is no contest requirement, it is strictly a technical learning curriculum (not competition). In go rankings this is simply not so...likewise there is still a theoretical portion of promotion once you get into dan grades...Once again, in go it matters not what you have learned from a book, merely what your score ends up as. Perhaps the better analogy for go would be something like MMA fighting, where you have a confined space, and a set of rules regarding illegal maneuvers, however other than that you are free to pick and choose your style winner take all.

[BobC]

More Judo.. it's also interesting that it was only once judo established common ground world wide (a shodan is shodan at judo pretty much everywhere) that it became an olympic sport (mid sixtees I think). Whilst Karate, Kung Fu and that lot.. never really got their act together and I don't think are an Olympic sport yet.. In karate in particular you have "schools" based on the "styles" developed by groups of players which are very suspect. There little/no quality control of these schools with pretty bad results.

In go the consequences of disorganization are not that desperate.. OK new players leave because they get disillusioned with the lack of structure in the early stages... but beyond that no bones are broken..

[palapiku]

OK new players leave because they get disillusioned with the lack of structure in the early stages...

I don't believe this has ever happened. Evidence, please.
To phrase it more strongly: There's no problem. You're inventing a problem.

[amnal]

actually I disagree with you on Judo.. Most classes end up in "fights" (as practice for tournaments). They are short lived.. they can hurt.. and like tournaments, require an umpire.. Kyu grading is vital to safety amongst other things.

You would not expect a 10 year old girl's judo ranking to be an accurate predictor of her abilities to fight a (lesser trained, but still trained) 200 lb man. The ranking is meant more as a mastery of technique rather than a predictor of fighting results.

Junior grades are different... a black belt 16 year old is often taken back to blue belt on passing 16 (adult level).. beyond that, as with many fighting arts (boxing, wrestling) ... tournament fights are arranged by weight.

Although demonstration of kata ( sequences of moves- bit like dancing) must by passed at all levels.. most gradings are largely determined by fights .. typically you have to beat a couple of judo players at your own level and two out of three at the higher level before you move up a Kyu...

If look here:

http://www.wycombejudocentre.co.uk/BJAD ... llabus.pdf

you can see that Dan grades in judo are taken a lot more seriously than beating a few peers on a server...

It's not about seriousness, it's about being that good. Are you trying to present this judo thing as meaningfully analogous, because I really don't think it is?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say any more. Go grades are not taken seriously enough? They don't need to be, because we can beat our peers on servers. Rank is a mathematical convenience that in go can be extremely well defined and followed. We can also verify its accuracy over grade ranges through the handicap system, which is much harder (though I suppose not impossible) to do in physical martial arts.

I don't understand, what could possibly be more serious than beating peers 50% of the time on a server with a large player base to fit its rank system to? It's a wonderful thing about go that we can do this so easily.

[quantumf]

A few comments (forgive the lack of direct quoting)

Some countries, notably The Netherlands, don't grant dan grades based directly on tournament results, they are done by committee. I'm not suggesting that they look at joseki knowledge etc when doing this, but the point is, its not automatically granted based on some mathematical rating system.

There are plenty of adult kyu players in China. I've met some locally (South Africa) and many in China. I'm sure the same applies to Japan and Korea.

If children do learn go in China, it's usually done as an extra-mural activity (like horse riding lessons, or whatever). These are done at colleges, and I'm pretty certain (and I can check) that they cater to kyu and dan level players, and they do formal teaching in conjunction with game reviews.

The notion that players are expected to become dan players at kindergarten is unhelpful. Sure, if you start the game as a pre-teen, you can probably progress very quickly in the right environment, but there are many people who discovered the game as adults, and have a comparitively limited time to invest in the game.

Anyway, I think the kyu/dan distinction is somewhat irrelevant - there is PLENTY to learn after you get 1d, and while a lot of it can only be done by means of reviewing your games and discussing mistakes, I know there is much that can be learnt in more theoretical forms (analysing pro games, joseki study, and more)

[BobC]

er... I was there:

http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/technical/grdaing_dan.php


"demonstrate superiority over a cross section of players"

Although it hints at beating players at 1 Kyu.. usually a Shodan or two is thrown in.. ( and they are usually not keen on being beaten!)

[BobC]

OK new players leave because they get disillusioned with the lack of structure in the early stages...

I don't believe this has ever happened. Evidence, please.
To phrase it more strongly: There's no problem. You're inventing a problem.

I suggest new players leave because there is little structure to learning go in the early stages. Evidence might exist (possible the number of 18 Kyus who have short lived accounts on servers). But that's not the point.

The ranking thing and hooking it into minimum standards might be viewed as an improvement. It ensures standards of teaching and play and may lead to improvement in many aspects of the game. Theres no statement of a problem that needs to be solved. Just a possible improvement.

There is evidence that when a martial art got organised in this manner - international recognition was won (playing in Olympics) and a minority far eastern sport got wide acceptance in the West...

I'd be interested to know of syllabusses/tests for early stage go players do exist in China/Korea/Japan..

[Mef]

The ranking thing and hooking it into minimum standards might be viewed as an improvement. It ensures standards of teaching and play and may lead to improvement in many aspects of the game. Theres no statement of a problem that needs to be solved. Just a possible improvement.

Again this is not what ranks in go are meant to represent though, and again I believe it is because Judo is a poor analogy for Go. Judo is a fighting technique, whereas go is more like a fight. You could develop such a system, but it would be rankings for a specific style of go....not for go in general. Your ranking in judo might tell you how you might fare in a bout against someone of a similar weight in judo, however it will not be a good proxy for how you will do in any given fight against any given person....a rank in go is meant to be a way of quantifying how you will probably do against any potential opponent regardless of if they know joseki, study tesuji, have difficulty concentrating during critical moments in the game, etc...

All you need to do to realize how difficult this would be is is look around at all the "How could I lose to this guy?!" stories...You'll get people who are 1d and have the audacity to crawl on the second line for 5 moves....then have the further audacity to win the game (=

That or you will have 15k's with a lot of joseki they have memorized, but they don't know basic shapes, or simple L&D, etc....


It would be like trying to assign ranks to the little kid who knows submission techniques, the guy in his mid-20's who's in shape (but may not know much about fighting), and the old guy who doesn't move much but has a haymaker that will knock you flat if it connects....at the end of the day all you can do is see who wins...

[yoyoma]

I interpret the OP as looking for an authority to set a training regimen. As another example, to lose weight you could do it on your own, and many people are successful doing it that way. But other people want an authority to set a program, and they follow that. And for many this is a good way to go about it, putting their faith in the expertise that someone put together this step-by-step program.

Well there are more than enough books out there, so I don't think it's necessary to write new books. Instead a program could be a recommendation of what books to do, in what order, along with rough guesses for ranks to go along with them. Here I took a stab. I think any program should include practical application as well, so I included some goals for those as well (running totals). Maybe I should offer certificates of completion for my program.

Learn To Play Go series
Vol 1. 30k -- 20 9x9 games, 1 19x19 game
Vol 2. 20k -- 20 13x13 games, 10 19x19 games
Vol 3. 15k -- 30 19x19 games
Vol 4. 12k -- 100 19x19 games
Vol 5. 10k -- 200 19x19 games

Get Strong at Go Series
Opening, L&D, Tesuji -- 350 19x19 games -- 5k
Invading, Handicap, Attacking -- 600 19x19 games -- 3k
Joseki 1-3, Endgame -- 900 19x19 games -- 1k