Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:10 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The pincer is an imposing move, and after I played my approach, I second-guessed it because of this pincer in specific. Red, you recommend a wide approach? I was a bit concerned that he would get to easily seal the corner and I would be stuck without a lot. Was I wanting too much, do you think? Araban, would you have recommended a far low approach, or is there a different one you'd prefer?

At the moment, since I'm clearly in my opponent's turf, I'm playing attachments to strengthen my stones and nab a little stability if I can.

Mezzanyne · Post by **Mezzanyne** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:35 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I feel like b really disregards why I played this pincer in the first place, so I'm pretty sure I want to be more aggressive and play a. But still...

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Personally, I would have chosen something like this. It keeps me out of the top and still keeps me just weak enough that if I stop to live, you get to extend from your pincering stone, buying yourself stability and another framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X O 3 . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 5 X . 7 . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer the first diagram to the game for you, because the resulting fight is likely to either give me life by killing your stone or worse, let me lock you into the corner while I build a stable group to negate your thickness to the right.

Mezzanyne · Post by **Mezzanyne** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:55 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Might as well give myself some fighting presence.

Post by **Solomon** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:14 pm

Chew Terr wrote:Araban, would you have recommended a far low approach, or is there a different one you'd prefer?

Sure, a two-space low approach would have been better me thinks.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:40 pm

What about 2 space high? I kind of like the look of it because depending on how Black responds, White may tenuki to approach the lower left.

Mezzanyne · Post by **Mezzanyne** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:38 pm

I never really understood why the two space approach is considered pincer-proof. Isn't there still a valid one space low pincer response? (To both high and low approaches)

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:21 pm

I think comparing these gives a reasonable abstraction;
(hidden for space)

Black has more space inside the pincer == better.

What joseki are you picturing after 2 space high approach, Aph?

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:39 pm

Nothing complicated:

I didn't consider a pincer that much, I imagine the stone will be easy to treat light.

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:46 pm

Mezzanyne wrote:I never really understood why the two space approach is considered pincer-proof. Isn't there still a valid one space low pincer response? (To both high and low approaches)

You can pincer the two space approaches, but the attack isn't as severe. There's simply more space between the approach stone and the two in the pincer.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:26 am

Mezzanyne wrote:I never really understood why the two space approach is considered pincer-proof. Isn't there still a valid one space low pincer response? (To both high and low approaches)

I think that a two space approach is not "pincer-proof", but if your opponent DOES end up pincering a two-space approach, he/she doesn't get as much benefit from the pincer as he/she would have if the approach were a one-space approach.

This is probably more true when the pincer acts as, not only a pincer, but also an extension. When it's an extension, a one-space pincer of a two-space approach will not be as far as a one-space pincer of a one-space approach.

In addition to that, when you do a two-space approach, a pincer is less severe, probably, because you have more space to react with a two-space approach than with a one-space approach.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Like I said, I'd be willing to give up a decent chunk of territory in exchange for a stable group facing outwards here. White has a lot of strength around, and if I'm stable, that's mostly negated. I was originally going to just atari at E17, but then I couldn't resist the ideas I was reading below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 4 . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | 0 5 O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 6 X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . 9 7 a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A14 seems to be sente, as is D14. After that, white's note sealed into the corner, but is stuck on the third line while I have almost wraparound influence and a sente for an extension.

Mezzanyne · Post by **Mezzanyne** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:41 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 4 . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What to say....it's the right move?

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:44 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | . 5 O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I stand by my reading. After this fight, we may want to call the opening more or less done, and go over things a bit. I've tried to comment fully, so I may not have a ton to add, but I'll look back afterwards and see if hindsight helps.

Mezzanyne · Post by **Mezzanyne** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:52 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 4 . . . . . O X O O X . . . . | $$ | 0 5 O X . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 6 X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If that's your plan, I'd be fine with just doing this sequence ^^

Life In 19x19

Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice

Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice