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127. ez4u vs topazg

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4126

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Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:45 am
by Kirby
ez4u wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks, Graham! I will accept.

I think it would be more normal for Black to simply jump out from :b13:. Later Black might want to strengthen these stones by successively peeping at White. However, allowing White to cut looks like it will help White more than Black.

In general though I think this type of peeping is more appropriate when Black's wall on the side is anchored on a 3-4 stone. For example in a case like this...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Imagine something like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 7 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In a somewhat different game we might run across something like this when White jumps out from the two-space high pincer and then counter pincers. One possible variation is that Black uses the two-space jump and then quickly takes the opportunity to reinforce by peeping at White. The point is that here Black's right side is tight. There is relatively little opportunity for White to do anything under the stones on the right. This is different in the actual game where Black's wall is one line higher. There is much more aji and it is more likely that sooner or later Black will pay a price on the right for strengthening White.



@ez4u:
The last part of your hide text for the last move seems to suggest that, if Black's right side was secure, peeping and such, as in your diagram, would work out well for black.

In this game, it sounds like such peeping would be bad for Black as there is more aji.

If this is the case, do you still advocate simply jumping out from :b13:? Since the subsequent peeping might be bad, would a one-space jump be the move to make?

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:48 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sente is sente until it isn't. Right now, he doesn't want me to cut him in half, because neither side is completely settled. When he's settled one of them, he can ignore a move like this, so I want to this before I descend. The following all seem plausible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 8 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X 8 X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 0 9 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 6 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:08 am
by ez4u
Kirby wrote:
ez4u wrote:...

I think it would be more normal for Black to simply jump out from :b13:. Later Black might want to strengthen these stones by successively peeping at White. However, allowing White to cut looks like it will help White more than Black.

In general though I think this type of peeping is more appropriate when Black's wall on the side is anchored on a 3-4 stone. For example in a case like this...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Imagine something like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 7 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In a somewhat different game we might run across something like this when White jumps out from the two-space high pincer and then counter pincers. One possible variation is that Black uses the two-space jump and then quickly takes the opportunity to reinforce by peeping at White. The point is that here Black's right side is tight. There is relatively little opportunity for White to do anything under the stones on the right. This is different in the actual game where Black's wall is one line higher. There is much more aji and it is more likely that sooner or later Black will pay a price on the right for strengthening White.



@ez4u:
The last part of your hide text for the last move seems to suggest that, if Black's right side was secure, peeping and such, as in your diagram, would work out well for black.

In this game, it sounds like such peeping would be bad for Black as there is more aji.

If this is the case, do you still advocate simply jumping out from :b13:? Since the subsequent peeping might be bad, would a one-space jump be the move to make?


I think automatically peeping is not a particularly good idea here. There are basically two reasons to peep: 1. to reduce White's eye shape or 2. To protect Black from being cut. There is always the negative of strengthening the integrity of the White wall. Here there is no threat of Black being cut. Also it is not likely that White can be cut off and killed outright so eye shape is not yet an issue. Therefore we can not really see where Black will derive the benefits from peeping. However, the peeps will definitely patch holes in White's wall. The negative will be there. In addition as mentioned above, the negative may end up having more impact than in some other situations. All this does not mean that it is necessarily bad. However, it is definitely early to peep. Once it is done, it can not be undone. White knows the situation and can plan ahead using it. I think that Black would have been better off just jumping. This is not an all or nothing situation for either side.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:31 am
by ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 6 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Goodnight from Tokyo. See you tomorrow! :salute:

It is after midnight again so I am being a true amateur and going by feeling instead of reading. Basically :b25: does not fully connect the cutting stone. Meanwhile the turn at :w26: weakens the upper side Black stones while correspondingly strengthening White. I believe this turns Black's idea with :b15: and :b17: into a "bad cut". Basically Black created two weak Black groups by inducing the cut, in exchange for at most one weak White group. After :w26: it is difficult for Black to tightly connect to the cutting stone since that will induce White to expand along the top.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O B . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . b 1 O . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . c d . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Say that Black answered :w1: with :b2:, which rescues the marked stone. I would be thinking about sliding as far as "a". This strengthens White while undercutting Black. Notice also that after :w1: if Black plays at "b" and White answers with "c", Black can not cut at "d" because the ladder works for White.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:32 am
by Magicwand
for obs only:
i think :w26: probe is a correct sequence before capturing the stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


btw: previous peep was kyuish move and :b25: also doesnt look right.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:40 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Really not sure if this changes much other than the move order. I think I still proceed as planned.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:53 am
by topazg
Night Dave, see you tomorrow :)

Gah, that wasn't the move I wanted to play first, I even said so last diagram, how incredibly lame is that :(

EDIT: That said, maybe this is too good for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 W 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O B 7 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 X O X . . X . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:41 pm
by ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I have to keep on moving out with these stones. I want to keep the upper side Black stones separated from the left side. I expect Black to connect in one way or another and then I will most likely continue here with a keima at H11. My upper right stones will have to take care of themselves, but I believe they can.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:32 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not losing the opportunity this time. After this, I plan on:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O 4 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . W O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:38 am
by ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expected Black to play around J14 first. Black should not be unhappy to have White rush to connect underneath. The second line at the top is hardly ever the key position on the board, not until the final stages of life and death.

Also I was wondering how Black would start pressuring the White stones at the top.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Helpful for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 2 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 O . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The issue with descending at :b1: is that White inevitably plays :w2:. If then :b3:, White connects at :w4:. After this White has either the cut at "a" or the jump into the corner available. Here :w6: is available because of :w4:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Is this Better?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just dropping down to :b1: here may be better as it is less accommodating to White. If :w2:, Black plays :b3: so as not to induce a White play at at O18. In this diagram White can not jump all the way into the corner.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:04 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 W 2 . 6 . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 5 4 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let me know if you disagree :)

Trigger if :w34: at "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: :b100: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 W 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O 6 5 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, I'm happy with this. He can live there for a few points, in gote. With the risk of separation still hanging over those middle stones, I presume he's either got to connect (with O14) or play to cut (at K13). Either way, I have a good chance of simply being "alive" at the top already, and will hopefully get sente for the invasion in the top left, or jumping underneath the top stone, or playing a big point on the bottom. Lots of reading before I can decide that. Why did I pull back with the funky :b33: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 W 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . a X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It fixes the cut at "a" and aims at "b", which reduces the urgency of even having to invade the top left corner, and makes the group much easier to settle quickly. Maybe it's one of my "trying to be clever but actually just being rather thin and sad" moves, but it feels all miai-ish and nice.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:16 am
by Kirby
@Observers:
ez4u wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Helpful for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 2 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 O . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...


Hane. It's a very simple idea. But I'm not sure I would have thought of it. When topazg decended, I had a picture similar to what he had suggested in mind:

topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O 4 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . W O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



And that's just too rushed. White is fine. He can calmly hane, and doesn't even need to worry about connecting.

It's the simple ideas that are the hardest for me to find, sometimes. I think it's because I get too rushed. When the opponent plays a particular move, I assume I know what the situation is, and jump to a conclusion without thinking about the details. Actually, maybe I do that in life in general, too.

I hope that I can refrain from being rushed in my play.

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:11 am
by Harleqin
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O C 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O 4 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . W O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I do not understand this :b3:. Why doesn't Black keep the option to save his cutting stone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O B 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O 2 3 X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:33 am
by topazg
One mistake I'm pretty sure I've committed so far:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I should push once more here instead of taking the circling point. White's kind of obliged to extend again as the hane would be horrible for White, and it a) gives me more space and b) prevents White from getting his nice thick result. I didn't do it because I didn't want to strengthen him for an invasion on the right side, but considering the rest of the move order would be the same, and it doesn't make a huge difference to his invasion potential, I think not pushing again was an error of fair significance.

I'm also much less able to attack that group, which means the threat of eye removal isn't that great from forcing him to capture (as he has copious space for a second eye now), and trying to save the stone isn't that great either, as that will give him very good thickness to invade the right with no convincing compensation.

My forward plan if he accepts my trigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . X . X O O . O W O . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X b X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lots of bad aji in "a" and "b", but :b43: seems so big :S

Go is hard!

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:50 am
by ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 W 2 . 6 0 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . 5 4 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thank you Graham. I will accept this.
Obs - It's hard to make long comments with diagrams from the iPad, so more later. :study:
All times are UTC-07:00
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