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Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:33 am
by daniel_the_smith
badukJr wrote:daniel_the_smith wrote:- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?
Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.
You should develop project ideas first, then ask for volunteers and funding for specific ideas next. Many people will ignore volunteering if you will just "Help out the AGA."
We need a volunteer to do that. Project ideas don't develop themselves!
badukJr wrote:- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)
Honestly, I think this is one thing that we actually do do OK.
Acutally, it makes me disappointed that AGA resources are used for this. Including the pro system, AGA currently supports super new beginners and the top 1% of amateurs very well. There are very few resources available for 15k-5d players.
Thomas generously donates his time, and pays his own expenses, so very few resources are actually used by this. But I agree that there is a deficit of materials for players stuck in the middle.
badukJr wrote:- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.
I agree. We are switching to a CMS. Further improvements will hopefully be forthcoming once that is complete.
Please please, give a preview of this. The other person's comment on this was also very rude, I thought.
Unfortunately, at the moment we are merely switching to a CMS, there isn't going to be a redesign, which we also desperately need. I agree we need to do better PR.
badukJr wrote:- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites
I agree, I think this is something we could probably do for a reasonable amount of money. Still, some money and volunteer time is required.
Again, advertise this idea. Make a couple test cases. The KBA has a whole series of videos like boom your sense up, and others for higher level on wbaduk site. Recording to an AGA youtube account free audio lessons on KGS by AGA members would be a huge improvement, and would just be riffing on an available source of information.
Volunteers needed for the advertising process just as much as the implementation.
badukJr wrote:- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.
We do this currently, and I personally would actually like to get away from this. Why? Right now, if you want the AGA to do something, the only realistic way for it to happen is to volunteer and do it yourself. This is hard on volunteers and the AGA, too. It would make much more sense for us to pay a professional to do whatever the task is, but that takes money, which we don't have much of. So, right now, my thought is we need to sort of "boot-strap" ourselves up to much larger membership numbers by a) fixing the problems we have dealing with people (
so please tell me what yours was!), and b) providing services which cost little and will make people happy, such as getting some original pro educational videos for members, or funding some group lessons (like KGS+, only for AGA members).
ah, vash3g beat me to it. Nice to see we basically are on the same page
Maybe you have too much red tape, is what you are saying? I am VP on an NPO, I've seen organizations crumble because the board becomes too full of people that just like to pass new rules and slow decision making processes down. It is much better to have a fluid process.
IMO, the AGA board is in acceptable condition. The execution of the organization is where the most help seems to be needed.
badukJr wrote:Also, I know this bear guy is being a jerk, but some of the self identifying board members here have demonstrated a lack in professionalism. When you have an irate customer, its always better to be professional when dealing with them. Generally they'll calm down. Having a rock solid attitude brings people towards your attitude, whether it be a bad or good attitude. Don't take it so personally in the future.
Just so you know, vash3g is not currently an AGA official. He has done and continues to do a lot of volunteer work for the AGA and he understandably gets a little cranky when people criticize without volunteering.
Also, unless I say otherwise, I'm speaking strictly for myself on this forum, not for the AGA. I realize it's a little risky, but I try not to censor myself too much. I'd like to be the same person I was prior to getting elected to the board. Readers of this forum ought to have had a pretty good idea of who I was before electing me, and I don't want to change on them. I would like to say even more than I do, but unfortunately I'm leery of having my statements used against me. I expect that eventually I'll manage to accidentally say something stupid, but I don't think I've done so yet.
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 am
by Joaz Banbeck
shapenaji wrote:...
Now I'm very curious as to what it means to be "professionally rude"
[admin] So are we. 
[/admin]
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:36 am
by pwaldron
The thread has taken a turn towards sniping, but I think the original message had some points. Someone has declined to renew their AGA membership because they didn't feel like it was worth it. He identified three items that he received as a member:
E-Journal--nice, but regarded as light on content
The Congress
Tournaments--actually rated tournaments, since the only AGA contribution is the rating
Unless a person is a youth or strong enough to compete in invitational events, that's really all AGA membership gets you. The other comments about how easy it is to raise money, etc show a lack of familiarity with...many things.
The core of the complaint is real--AGA membership doesn't provide much and at least some people feel it's not worth the money. I suspect this is not an isolated opinion, and I hope that the people with decision-making authority take note as they make plans for the future and allocate resources. It's not something that will be fixed overnight, but I hope it will be taken seriously.
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:06 am
by hyperpape
And I don't think the original post (which was the only reasonable contribution bearzbear has made) was particularly worthwhile. Bearzbear says he's not getting anything out of the AGA. That's an ok criticism--there have been efforts to think of what the organization could do, but there hasn't been anything like consensus. Everyone seems to have their pet projects, but they're all things that will benefit a few obsessives--e.g. ratings improvements.*
What I find insulting (aside from the silly comment about fund-raising) is this guy's apparent idea that he's communicating with a bunch of idiots. That he can just say "hey guys, things aren't working" and everyone will immediately realize that he's right, and they'll know just what to do about it, and they've just been too dumb to actually think about the problem until now. Like there's some kind of obvious solution, that the lazy bums at the AGA haven't bothered to even try and find.
I'm not even part of the AGA and I find that an insulting frame of mind.
How to be a responsible critic
Here's my challenge to anyone who thinks that they know how the AGA is falling short.
If you think there's a big picture thing that needs to be done, read the many threads on this board about what should be done. See whether people agree with your idea. If they don't, realize that you're basically peddling your pet project. React accordingly. If there is agreement, ask who needs to be involved--is it a single person project, does it need a committee, an army of volunteers? What are the concrete steps? And then propose them. You don't even have to do them, you just have to give an idea of what steps can be taken.
I think there are some good ideas, but I haven't seen anything truly compelling. If you think that's what the AGA needs to do, you need to be building consensus that it's a good idea. Because right now, I think no one knows what the big steps to take are.
The other type of complaints are organizational--people not responding to emails. Fixing that requires specificity. Many people do respond. Some may not. Or maybe some months, things may break down. Fixing that requires either a) feedback to the people who aren't doing their job or b) reorganization, so that responsibilities are more realistic. Please, do give some kind of specific feedback (it can be backchanneled--PM Daniel rather than publicly shaming somebody or whatever).
But if you're not either making the case for big ideas (and saying "hey, we should get professional quality videos" doesn't cut it) or being specific about organization, you're just carping and acting like everyone else is an idiot who can't see the real problem.
PS. A confusion about language, dear sirs. To say something is unprofessionally rude can just mean it's rude in such a way that it's unprofessional. Doesn't imply that there's professional rudeness (One might say Gordon Ramsay is professionally rude, but you might also say he's just being unprofessional and making money. A delicate question indeed). But I'm not a professional (board member) so it's entirely apt.
PPS this is kinda rambling. Sorry.
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:19 am
by bearzbear
Raising money is darn near impossible if the organization that is trying to raise the money is not viewed as "meritorious" and beyond reproach.
Regarding the first, that has much to do with how it operates, and how it is seen in terms of both the public image and how people find it when they interact with it more closely.
Regarding the second, I will leave it to those who are familiar with the present and past issues in the AGA. No need to say more than that.
Based on what Daniel is saying about how difficult it is do actually DO anything, I have to stand by what I said earlier. There is something intrinsically lacking in the nature and/or structure of the organization that prevents it from taking steps that are even simple and basic. Forget about more ambitious actions, even if they would be highly beneficial.
Those who volunteer their time and energy might do well to not confuse their sweat and effort with issues that are preventing the organization from growing and prospering as it should. To use a blunt analogy, the crew on the Titanic worked hard after it hit the iceberg, but the ship still sank and people died. The thing I am trying to focus on is the state of the ship and it's course, not the efforts of specific "crew members".
Marshaling the talents, efforts and even the money of members and those sympathetic to the AGA and Go in the USA is really the task at hand. What I am suggesting is to ask what needs to be changed, what needs to be done in order to make that happen?
If the leadership doesn't even see the need in the first place - which in years past it seems they did not, and if they did were unable to implement much - then there is nothing to do or talk about.
That's one of the principal concepts I've tried to generate a discussion about and an understanding.
_-_-bearzbear
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:30 am
by vash3g
daniel_the_smith wrote:badukJr wrote:- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.
I agree. We are switching to a CMS. Further improvements will hopefully be forthcoming once that is complete.
Please please, give a preview of this. The other person's comment on this was also very rude, I thought.
http://beta.usgo.orgAll you guys had to do was ask...
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:30 am
by xed_over
Cross tables, rank graphs, a place to upload commented games...
http://agagd.usgo.org/
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:27 pm
by bearzbear
Prepare to try, find guilty and shoot the messenger.I just read this:
http://usgo.org/board/ApprovedMinutes/m ... -23-11.pdfIf you have not, you might.
Based on what this says, this is my sincere suggestion:
For the next 12 months;
- eliminate all travel on the $$ of the AGA
- end all projects that are not the Go Congress that require AGA manpower or $$. (peripheral activities like small tourney's and TD's can continue of course)
- stop all expenditures that are not 100% essential to the existence of the AGA.
- apologize profusely to the Koreans and beg them to accept apologies on the behalf of the AGA and the American Go Community at large, and hope they will let
us participate in 12 months
- go with whatever is done or not done on the website, pay that off immediately, stop work.
- spend all efforts and time on reorganizing internally
- apologize to the American Go community at large about the state of the AGA and tell them in specific terms how the AGA will be resurrected anew.
- give updates as specific mileposts have been met.
- REACH OUT TO the community at large for EXPERTISE, and input on fundraising and organization.
- Members of existing committees should submit letters of resignation, regardless of their re-appointment. (see comments in the pdf about comittees in disarray - no natural leaders? end.)
- If the President can not or is not able to take charge in this manner, someone else needs to. However it gets done.
This is the short list. Bad news? Better news if the organization gets organized.
_-_-bearzbear
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:39 pm
by hyperpape
You may note that the KPMC issue has been discussed a bit on these boards. Suffice to say that while the overall reaction was extremely critical of the AGA, your "unique" perspective did not win the day.
go with whatever is done or not done on the website, pay that off immediately, stop work.
I don't regret being rude. I regret not being more rude!
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:51 pm
by hyperpape
The ability to upload commented games is either not well known or not something people care about. I'd like to assume it's the former (at least since people do upload games to the European Go Database).
I'd suggest that there be an ejournal article about it, and that there be a habit of uploading the games that are broadcast to the USGO accounts on KGS.
It's also not obvious how you can see the game records that are currently included in the database. Is there a quick way to view that?
I'll pass both suggestions on to the ejournal and database manager in a day or two--just putting this out there so y'all can comment.
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:19 pm
by msgreg
Just a post to those who are reading this thread. I support the AGA through both my time and money and I appreciate all the time and energy the AGA volunteers are putting into the organization. I would recommend cherry picking the decent ideas from this thread and ignoring the unhelpful or ill-timed suggestions, of which there are many.
I also appreciate the way in which the current AGA representatives have handled themselves in this conversation. Very well done.
I know from experience that it is disheartening and very demotivating to hear (read) the type of accusations that are happening in this thread. Please know that from my perspective only a small number of the issues from OP that have been brought up are accurate and almost none of the recommended solutions seem to me well thought out, effective or practical.
My breaking point was the "disband and stop everything" (not an actual quote) idea. I applaud the fact that your (AGA representatives) breaking point is further afield than mine
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:55 pm
by aokun
msgreg wrote:Just a post to those who are reading this thread. I support the AGA through both my time and money and I appreciate all the time and energy the AGA volunteers are putting into the organization. I would recommend cherry picking the decent ideas from this thread and ignoring the unhelpful or ill-timed suggestions, of which there are many.
I also appreciate the way in which the current AGA representatives have handled themselves in this conversation. Very well done.
I know from experience that it is disheartening and very demotivating to hear (read) the type of accusations that are happening in this thread. Please know that from my perspective only a small number of the issues from OP that have been brought up are accurate and almost none of the recommended solutions seem to me well thought out, effective or practical.
My breaking point was the "disband and stop everything" (not an actual quote) idea. I applaud the fact that your (AGA representatives) breaking point is further afield than mine
Thank you.
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:20 pm
by jts
This guy is a truly amazing troll. I haven't seen anyone quite this polished in years. Can we please keep him around so that we can all observe and hone our own trollery?
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:13 pm
by illluck
I think a lot of strength in trolling is the willingness to change the focus and ignore questions that are hard to answer. Also being willing to contradict previous comments and bog down the discussion to arguing over minor details :p
Re: I did not renew my AGA membership.
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:20 pm
by RBerenguel
Some kind of troll sabaki techniques illluck?